5 ms·

It's disappointing how so much money is being poured into "mechanical keyboard kits" that simply re-create the old ANSI/ISO layouts that are rooted in old limit

It's disappointing how so much money is being poured into "mechanical keyboard kits" that simply re-create the old ANSI/ISO layouts that are rooted in old limitations from the days of the typewriter. Alternate layouts & ortholinear/ergonomic designs should be the forefront of the movement. All this focus on outdated designs makes the community "accessible" but also holds people back. The emergence of row-staggered 40% boards is a particular disappointing anachronism. Don't think ortholinear boards can compete? OLKB boards usually sell several thousand every time a group buy runs, and the OLKB main store has a several-month long wait list. People who buy keycaps for these can end up spending $140 for 140 keycaps, 48 of which they'll ever even use... $200 minimum if they don't want Qwerty. The demand is there. People dream about that old GITS typing scene, but we'll never achieve it when our instagram influencers are always hyping this kind of stuff. Japan at least has the right focus - Corne, Helidox, Lily58, Biacco42, and NumAtreus were all created in the past couple of years, with countless more coming.

ghaff 7y ago
>Alternate layouts & ortholinear/ergonimic designs should be the forefront of the movement. Ehh. There are a lot of good reasons to have layouts that are fairly common across all the equipment you'll use. From what I've seen, while there may be some advantages to different layouts and configurations, very few things are so compelling as to warrant a wholesale change outside of some niches like court stenographers for which specialized training is justified.
- css 7y ago
  Anecdotally, I tried an orthogonal layout and loved it, but after a few weeks my productivity when using coworkers' computers and the keyboard built into my laptop dropped so far because I started to lose the ability to type on QWERTY. I guess I could carry around a keyboard and cable everywhere but that seems suboptimal.
- yummypaint 7y ago
  I don't think consistency is an issue unless other people need to use the unusual equipment. For example I think most people who use dvorak on their personal system have no trouble at all switching back to qwerty as needed, at least that has been my experience.
  - ipqk 7y ago
    I'm a 15 year dvorak user, and I can no longer type on qwerty keyboards at all — it's just hunt and peck really. But qwerty keyboards on the phone are just fine.
Cactus2018 7y ago
A few alternate layouts on display at: http://romly.com/archives/2019/05/tokyomk6_en.html http://romly.com/archives/2019/05/tokyomk6_en.html https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20113224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20113224
dancek 7y ago
Agreed. Modeling your own keyboard chassis is possible, and there's plenty of open source models to start from. If you have access to a 3d printer you get down to normal mechanical keyboard price range. My own attempt is at https://github.com/dancek/dactyl-keyboard/tree/less-aggressive https://github.com/dancek/dactyl-keyboard/tree/less-aggressi... . While I only have the left half built, I'd say that measuring fingers and tuning an ergonomic layout to your preferences works well. I don't expect to see a production keyboard as ergonomic. Ever. N.b. the amount of work needed for this build is pretty ridiculous. There's a reason that keyboards are usually flat.
PhasmaFelis 7y ago
This sounds interesting, but I don't know what most of that means. Can you elaborate?
kazinator 7y ago
It's disappointing how a $100,000 watch still has a big and little hand going around a conventional 12 hour dial ...
- vojta_letal 7y ago
  That's not accurate. There are ergonomic variants of keyboards on the market. There is no viable alternative to the way how we measure time.
  - kube-system 7y ago
    There are digital and 24 hour variants that are not only viable, but common.
  - cromulent 7y ago
    I think they are posting about how time is displayed, not measured. Digital watches seem fairly viable.
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  That would be disappointing! If you're charging $100,000 for a damn watch, it had better beam the time directly into my brain at all times.
random3 7y ago
Take a look at ergodox, keyboardio, dactyl, etc. and you'll see more innovation than in the MacBooks.
rifung 7y ago
> It's disappointing how so much money is being poured into "mechanical keyboard kits" that simply re-create the old ANSI/ISO layouts that are rooted in old limitations from the days of the typewriter. Alternate layouts & ortholinear/ergonomic designs should be the forefront of the movement. All this focus on outdated designs makes the community "accessible" but also holds people back. I mean most of the enthusiast keyboards allow you to program the keyboard so you can make the layout whatever you want. Personally I won't buy any keyboard that isn't just a standard ten keyless because I 1) Don't want to have to remap my vim keys 2) Want other people to be able to use my keyboard 3) Want to be able to use other people's keyboards
- hawski 7y ago
  OP has different meaning of layout on their mind. You can put keys in different spots than a typewriter. Examples: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLUM_keyboard#/media/File:PLUM_Keyboard.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLUM_keyboard#/media/File:PLUM... - Ortholinear keyboard (notice that key columns are aligned, unlike your normal Qwerty keyboard) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltron#/media/File:Maltron_Dual_Hand_keyboard_with_Malt_Key_distribution.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltron#/media/File:Maltron_Du... - Ergonomic keyboard, much more funky layout
- equalunique 7y ago
  Have you ever thought about how reasons 2 and 3 can be chalked up (or down) to other people holding you back? As for Vim, I won't lie and say that adapting to it with Dvorak has been easy, but it's more doable than Colemak/Workman/Norman/CarpalX.
CarVac 7y ago
The problem is you get to choose either a better layout or better keycaps. My Mitosis has a really great layout but I paid more for non-legended caps so I could get the profile I wanted. Other people with unusual ergo layouts go with non-sculpted profiles like DSA or SA R3 which I cannot stand. Or you can go ANSI and get wonderful profiles like MT3 and DSS. The compromise is to go with a standardized ergo layout like the Ergodox, which I regard as very suboptimal… its popularity stems from its availability and its availability stems from its popularity.
- SuperPaintMan 7y ago
  >The problem is you get to choose either a better layout or better keycaps. Very much this. I'm very fond of Kailh Chocs and use them in many of my designs [1], while an excellent switch you have exactly two colour options White Blanks and Black Blanks. If that wasn't bad enough they're different sizes then regular MX so if you don't have a board _specfically_ designed for them you end up with gaps in the caps. It sucks because there is only so far you can go with low travel MX and good luck convincing someone to switch that's using 150$ of the latest GMK. [1] https://www.gboards.ca/ https://www.gboards.ca/
  - CarVac 7y ago
    Neat! I actually got to lay hands on a Georgi yesterday because one of my online friends I met up with (for non-keyboard-purposes) brought one. Very solid-feeling.
    - SuperPaintMan 7y ago
      Awesome! The switches are the best part 12g is insane for the first time. I feel like a drug dealer with those bags of springs :)
      - equalunique 7y ago
        Been wanting to try one of these. Usually I have good fortune with s/h, but unfortunately my Georgi order is the one thing that in two years somehow never made it to my mailbox.
BubRoss 7y ago
The layouts can be whatever you want. The keycaps are interchangeable and the layout is dictated by the firmware flashed to an Arduino.
tvanantwerp 7y ago
I'm someone who really wants to try one of these newer split keyboards, but absolutely does not want to solder the damn thing together myself. I not only wish there were more of these keyboards, but I wish it were easy to just buy one all put-together.
- jpindar 7y ago
  Wouold you be willing to pay someone to assemble it for you? It might be cheaper than you think.
  - equalunique 7y ago
    I've assembled an Iris 2.1 for someone before. Can do.
cr0sh 7y ago
There's an entire sub-space of the mechanical keyboard hobby dedicated to custom DIY keyboards. From what I have seen lately, the focus has been on eliminating the "stagger" of the keys and going more in a grid (but still keeping the mostly QWERTY layout - though some are experimenting with other layouts, too). You have a few brave souls doing split and ergonomic styles, too. Then you have others who build specialty "keyboards" that are closer in scope to a 10-key with additional do-dads, mostly meant for games or other "macro" tasks (Photoshop and DAWs for instance). Of course, there's also the people playing with chorded keyboards and such - but they've always have been fairly fringe (seeing as most of the time the purpose of such "keyboards" are for custom AR rigs and other wearable systems).

ghaff 7y ago

>Alternate layouts & ortholinear/ergonimic designs should be the forefront of the movement. Ehh. There are a lot of good reasons to have layouts that are fairly common across all the equipment you'll use. From what I've seen, while there may be some advantages to different layouts and configurations, very few things are so compelling as to warrant a wholesale change outside of some niches like court stenographers for which specialized training is justified.

css 7y ago
Anecdotally, I tried an orthogonal layout and loved it, but after a few weeks my productivity when using coworkers' computers and the keyboard built into my laptop dropped so far because I started to lose the ability to type on QWERTY. I guess I could carry around a keyboard and cable everywhere but that seems suboptimal.
yummypaint 7y ago
I don't think consistency is an issue unless other people need to use the unusual equipment. For example I think most people who use dvorak on their personal system have no trouble at all switching back to qwerty as needed, at least that has been my experience.
- ipqk 7y ago
  I'm a 15 year dvorak user, and I can no longer type on qwerty keyboards at all — it's just hunt and peck really. But qwerty keyboards on the phone are just fine.

Cactus2018 7y ago

A few alternate layouts on display at: http://romly.com/archives/2019/05/tokyomk6_en.html http://romly.com/archives/2019/05/tokyomk6_en.html https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20113224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20113224

dancek 7y ago

Agreed. Modeling your own keyboard chassis is possible, and there's plenty of open source models to start from. If you have access to a 3d printer you get down to normal mechanical keyboard price range. My own attempt is at https://github.com/dancek/dactyl-keyboard/tree/less-aggressive https://github.com/dancek/dactyl-keyboard/tree/less-aggressi... . While I only have the left half built, I'd say that measuring fingers and tuning an ergonomic layout to your preferences works well. I don't expect to see a production keyboard as ergonomic. Ever. N.b. the amount of work needed for this build is pretty ridiculous. There's a reason that keyboards are usually flat.

PhasmaFelis 7y ago

This sounds interesting, but I don't know what most of that means. Can you elaborate?

kazinator 7y ago

It's disappointing how a $100,000 watch still has a big and little hand going around a conventional 12 hour dial ...

vojta_letal 7y ago
That's not accurate. There are ergonomic variants of keyboards on the market. There is no viable alternative to the way how we measure time.
- kube-system 7y ago
  There are digital and 24 hour variants that are not only viable, but common.
- cromulent 7y ago
  I think they are posting about how time is displayed, not measured. Digital watches seem fairly viable.
PhasmaFelis 7y ago
That would be disappointing! If you're charging $100,000 for a damn watch, it had better beam the time directly into my brain at all times.

random3 7y ago

Take a look at ergodox, keyboardio, dactyl, etc. and you'll see more innovation than in the MacBooks.

rifung 7y ago

> It's disappointing how so much money is being poured into "mechanical keyboard kits" that simply re-create the old ANSI/ISO layouts that are rooted in old limitations from the days of the typewriter. Alternate layouts & ortholinear/ergonomic designs should be the forefront of the movement. All this focus on outdated designs makes the community "accessible" but also holds people back. I mean most of the enthusiast keyboards allow you to program the keyboard so you can make the layout whatever you want. Personally I won't buy any keyboard that isn't just a standard ten keyless because I 1) Don't want to have to remap my vim keys 2) Want other people to be able to use my keyboard 3) Want to be able to use other people's keyboards

hawski 7y ago
OP has different meaning of layout on their mind. You can put keys in different spots than a typewriter. Examples: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLUM_keyboard#/media/File:PLUM_Keyboard.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLUM_keyboard#/media/File:PLUM... - Ortholinear keyboard (notice that key columns are aligned, unlike your normal Qwerty keyboard) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltron#/media/File:Maltron_Dual_Hand_keyboard_with_Malt_Key_distribution.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltron#/media/File:Maltron_Du... - Ergonomic keyboard, much more funky layout
equalunique 7y ago
Have you ever thought about how reasons 2 and 3 can be chalked up (or down) to other people holding you back? As for Vim, I won't lie and say that adapting to it with Dvorak has been easy, but it's more doable than Colemak/Workman/Norman/CarpalX.

CarVac 7y ago

The problem is you get to choose either a better layout or better keycaps. My Mitosis has a really great layout but I paid more for non-legended caps so I could get the profile I wanted. Other people with unusual ergo layouts go with non-sculpted profiles like DSA or SA R3 which I cannot stand. Or you can go ANSI and get wonderful profiles like MT3 and DSS. The compromise is to go with a standardized ergo layout like the Ergodox, which I regard as very suboptimal… its popularity stems from its availability and its availability stems from its popularity.

SuperPaintMan 7y ago
>The problem is you get to choose either a better layout or better keycaps. Very much this. I'm very fond of Kailh Chocs and use them in many of my designs [1], while an excellent switch you have exactly two colour options White Blanks and Black Blanks. If that wasn't bad enough they're different sizes then regular MX so if you don't have a board _specfically_ designed for them you end up with gaps in the caps. It sucks because there is only so far you can go with low travel MX and good luck convincing someone to switch that's using 150$ of the latest GMK. [1] https://www.gboards.ca/ https://www.gboards.ca/
- CarVac 7y ago
  Neat! I actually got to lay hands on a Georgi yesterday because one of my online friends I met up with (for non-keyboard-purposes) brought one. Very solid-feeling.
  - SuperPaintMan 7y ago
    Awesome! The switches are the best part 12g is insane for the first time. I feel like a drug dealer with those bags of springs :)
    - equalunique 7y ago
      Been wanting to try one of these. Usually I have good fortune with s/h, but unfortunately my Georgi order is the one thing that in two years somehow never made it to my mailbox.

BubRoss 7y ago

The layouts can be whatever you want. The keycaps are interchangeable and the layout is dictated by the firmware flashed to an Arduino.

tvanantwerp 7y ago

I'm someone who really wants to try one of these newer split keyboards, but absolutely does not want to solder the damn thing together myself. I not only wish there were more of these keyboards, but I wish it were easy to just buy one all put-together.

jpindar 7y ago
Wouold you be willing to pay someone to assemble it for you? It might be cheaper than you think.
- equalunique 7y ago
  I've assembled an Iris 2.1 for someone before. Can do.

cr0sh 7y ago

There's an entire sub-space of the mechanical keyboard hobby dedicated to custom DIY keyboards. From what I have seen lately, the focus has been on eliminating the "stagger" of the keys and going more in a grid (but still keeping the mostly QWERTY layout - though some are experimenting with other layouts, too). You have a few brave souls doing split and ergonomic styles, too. Then you have others who build specialty "keyboards" that are closer in scope to a 10-key with additional do-dads, mostly meant for games or other "macro" tasks (Photoshop and DAWs for instance). Of course, there's also the people playing with chorded keyboards and such - but they've always have been fairly fringe (seeing as most of the time the purpose of such "keyboards" are for custom AR rigs and other wearable systems).