5 ms·

I wonder if it's "fixable", though. I come from a lower-middle-class family, so does my wife; we're upper-middle-class now. Our kids are nowhere near as "driven

I wonder if it's "fixable", though. I come from a lower-middle-class family, so does my wife; we're upper-middle-class now. Our kids are nowhere near as "driven" as we were... but, to the extent that we can, of course we're going to use all our resources to make them more successful than they "deserve". It's basic human nature, yes the game is rigged, because if you come from a family that is both stable & well-off, your family will naturally provide much more support than the society could provide to the average Joe. I'm not sure how that can change ever (or even if it's desirable to try to change it). The downside of being raised in a well-off family (at least anecdotally/ from my circle of friends) is that the children already have almost everything they could desire, and they take this stuff for granted, and as such they tend to put less effort into "life". Yes they need less effort to be successful - but they are also used to "less effort", so they don't try as hard. This balances the game a little, for those less fortunate. But I can totally see how if your background is too bad, the game is actively rigged against you, and it's not humanly possible to overcome your condition. That's probably where the society needs to focus the most.

sharadov 7y ago
I think about this as well. My parents struggled so that I could have a comfortable life. But I did see the struggle up-close, and am lucky to have inherited the work-ethic. I have a comfortable upper-middle-class life and think about how do you make sure that the kids inherit that. The answer is to keep the work ethic going - working hard. My dad is 70 and could have retired in any part of the world, 10 years back, but still works - not for the money, but for social causes, lives a pretty simple life, and is a huge inspiration to the rest of the family. Actions speak louder than works, the kids look at you and will emulate the habits. I've seen enough rich folk, who pass on those values, so yes although their kids have all the benefits, the expectations are also very high. So it comes down to you to create an environment that inspires and encourages them to think big. Not everyone deals the same with struggle - a lot more drop out than fight on. It's a balancing act.
- virgilp 7y ago
  > The answer is to keep the work ethic going - working hard. That doesn't seem to work unfortunately. Good if it does for you :)
  - sharadov 7y ago
    You mean, it's not working for you or your kids?
    - virgilp 7y ago
      For the kids - they don't seem to take inspiration at all from us, in fact it's almost like they make a point to be as different from us as possible. Maybe that'll change after the teenage years, who knows :). But, tbh, I don't even mind. I don't want them necessarily to make similar choices with ours... it's just that their path is so different that I don't know where it'll lead them (we're both engineers, our kids seem to have artistic inclinations for some reason). It's a bit stressful because they're so different, but I take comfort in the fact that it's their choices to make, and anyway compared to the average person, they'll have ample support & opportunities to change their mind later, should they want to. They definitely have more room for mistakes than we did.
      - sharadov 7y ago
        I would chalk it down to teenage rebellion. My parents were doctors and I wanted to get as far away from being one, became an engineer ( but if you ask me today, I would have gone down the medicine route..).
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Your Dad sounds awesome.
roenxi 7y ago
The situation needs to be understood more deeply to make sense of it - one of the reasons that the well-off put in less effort is because they are exposed to a slightly more honest perspective on how useful effort is. Raw, undirected effort does not do much. Effort needs to be deployed in a time, context and circumstance dependent way to yield results. The correlation between effort and outcomes is only because seizing an opportunity requires effort. So if there are several people in an obviously opportunity-rich environment, the ones who expend more effort to seize them will prosper more. There are two questions; the first is does the environment present opportunities? A poor child in Africa with Ebola no doubt has less opportunities than a healthy one born into a wealthy western banking family. The second questions is what does opportunity look like? Many modern problems exist because people are simply blind to the opportunities that surround them. The interplay of those two questions is beyond complex and has so far resisted any one-size-fits-all solution to the human condition.
wastedhours 7y ago
Social mobility and educational success (at least in the UK, where educational attainment compared to background is one of the starkest in the western world) is intrinsically linked to your parents income. Even rich kids playing on easy mode still do much better - kids with wealthier parents who do less well academically, still tend to go on to earn more later in life than poorer kids who do better [0] I've put stints in at charities in this space, and there are people who care and trying to move the needle, but there are mountains to climb on this issue. Improving education for kids from poorer backgrounds is one of the main ways we can solve the issue. One issue we face though is the anecdata brigade rolling out the "I did this and I only have half a GCSE in woodwork". A lack of aspiration as a result of background familiarity, and an acceptance of mediocrity from society and even some working in education are key things. [0] just one source for stats: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/30/social-mobility-in-uk-virtually-stagnant-since-2014 https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/30/social-mobil...
toasterlovin 7y ago
Your kids have a lot of life left to live. Probably life will throw some curveballs at them (it does for most of us). These curveballs will probably spur them to develop drive and motivation.
hnal943 7y ago
It seems the best thing for a society to do is to promote stable families, since this is the indicator of success.
sethammons 7y ago
My wife and I talk about this. We are unsure if we have done a disservice to our kids by shielding them from the crap we had to deal with. We were poor, from broken homes, had to work very hard, and have a bit of luck to get where we are. Our kids are just so lazy.

sharadov 7y ago

I think about this as well. My parents struggled so that I could have a comfortable life. But I did see the struggle up-close, and am lucky to have inherited the work-ethic. I have a comfortable upper-middle-class life and think about how do you make sure that the kids inherit that. The answer is to keep the work ethic going - working hard. My dad is 70 and could have retired in any part of the world, 10 years back, but still works - not for the money, but for social causes, lives a pretty simple life, and is a huge inspiration to the rest of the family. Actions speak louder than works, the kids look at you and will emulate the habits. I've seen enough rich folk, who pass on those values, so yes although their kids have all the benefits, the expectations are also very high. So it comes down to you to create an environment that inspires and encourages them to think big. Not everyone deals the same with struggle - a lot more drop out than fight on. It's a balancing act.

virgilp 7y ago
> The answer is to keep the work ethic going - working hard. That doesn't seem to work unfortunately. Good if it does for you :)
- sharadov 7y ago
  You mean, it's not working for you or your kids?
  - virgilp 7y ago
    For the kids - they don't seem to take inspiration at all from us, in fact it's almost like they make a point to be as different from us as possible. Maybe that'll change after the teenage years, who knows :). But, tbh, I don't even mind. I don't want them necessarily to make similar choices with ours... it's just that their path is so different that I don't know where it'll lead them (we're both engineers, our kids seem to have artistic inclinations for some reason). It's a bit stressful because they're so different, but I take comfort in the fact that it's their choices to make, and anyway compared to the average person, they'll have ample support & opportunities to change their mind later, should they want to. They definitely have more room for mistakes than we did.
    - sharadov 7y ago
      I would chalk it down to teenage rebellion. My parents were doctors and I wanted to get as far away from being one, became an engineer ( but if you ask me today, I would have gone down the medicine route..).
toomuchtodo 7y ago
Your Dad sounds awesome.

roenxi 7y ago

The situation needs to be understood more deeply to make sense of it - one of the reasons that the well-off put in less effort is because they are exposed to a slightly more honest perspective on how useful effort is. Raw, undirected effort does not do much. Effort needs to be deployed in a time, context and circumstance dependent way to yield results. The correlation between effort and outcomes is only because seizing an opportunity requires effort. So if there are several people in an obviously opportunity-rich environment, the ones who expend more effort to seize them will prosper more. There are two questions; the first is does the environment present opportunities? A poor child in Africa with Ebola no doubt has less opportunities than a healthy one born into a wealthy western banking family. The second questions is what does opportunity look like? Many modern problems exist because people are simply blind to the opportunities that surround them. The interplay of those two questions is beyond complex and has so far resisted any one-size-fits-all solution to the human condition.

wastedhours 7y ago

Social mobility and educational success (at least in the UK, where educational attainment compared to background is one of the starkest in the western world) is intrinsically linked to your parents income. Even rich kids playing on easy mode still do much better - kids with wealthier parents who do less well academically, still tend to go on to earn more later in life than poorer kids who do better [0] I've put stints in at charities in this space, and there are people who care and trying to move the needle, but there are mountains to climb on this issue. Improving education for kids from poorer backgrounds is one of the main ways we can solve the issue. One issue we face though is the anecdata brigade rolling out the "I did this and I only have half a GCSE in woodwork". A lack of aspiration as a result of background familiarity, and an acceptance of mediocrity from society and even some working in education are key things. [0] just one source for stats: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/30/social-mobility-in-uk-virtually-stagnant-since-2014 https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/30/social-mobil...

toasterlovin 7y ago

Your kids have a lot of life left to live. Probably life will throw some curveballs at them (it does for most of us). These curveballs will probably spur them to develop drive and motivation.

hnal943 7y ago

It seems the best thing for a society to do is to promote stable families, since this is the indicator of success.

sethammons 7y ago

My wife and I talk about this. We are unsure if we have done a disservice to our kids by shielding them from the crap we had to deal with. We were poor, from broken homes, had to work very hard, and have a bit of luck to get where we are. Our kids are just so lazy.