5 ms·

Is there any downside to periodically taking strong antifungals? We don't have beneficial fungi do we? I have been considering a dose of ivermectin twice a ye

Is there any downside to periodically taking strong antifungals? We don't have beneficial fungi do we? I have been considering a dose of ivermectin twice a year. Studies hav correlates it with a strong anti cancer effect.

300bps 7y ago
Is there any downside to periodically taking strong antifungals? I type on computers for a living but I think in general everything in your body is in balance. For example, if you remove bacteria via an antibiotic you can get a fungal infection. It stands to reason that if you remove fungi via an antifungal the reduced competition for resources could cause an overgrowth of bacteria.
tyingq 7y ago
Ivermectine is for killing heartworms in dogs, right? Is it also an antifungal?
- eth0up 7y ago
  Aside from usage in many other beasts beyond dogs, ivermectin has a fairly wide and possibly growing range of applications, eg used externally to treat rosacea, internally for river blindness, etc. It has anthelmintic effects on many roundworms, but not flatworms. It's an acaricide and generally effective in treating scabies; also lice and bedbugs. Definitely keep pet spiders away from ivermectin! I've seen nothing (yet) indicating antifungal properties. Anyone considering self administration (a commenter somewhere above) should note the hepatotoxicity of the drug. Edit note: I am pretty sure ivermectin is the active ingredient in Revolution, an extremely popular medicine for dogs... and cats, combatting both heartworm and fleas and maybe more.
pfdietz 7y ago
Amphotericin B is really bad news ("Amphoterrible").
tomhoward 7y ago
This article [1] by Carl Zimmer discusses the topic. It doesn't offer a conclusive answer to your questions, but makes the point that there could well be a beneficial role for fungi in the body that we currently know little about as it hasn't been researched in much depth. I've personally had cause to research the human microbiome very deeply (i.e., as deeply as a layperson reasonably can) in the past 10+ years, and whilst the idea of eradicating all fungi has seemed compelling at times, I'm now much more on the side of taking moderate steps to keep things in balance. Evolution and complex systems being what they are, it's unlikely that you could completely remove one component of the system without causing unintended negative consequences. [1] https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/phenomena/2013/05/22/getting-to-know-your-inner-mushroom/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/phenomena/2013/05...
- bdamm 7y ago
  One thing fungi are generally good at is regulating bacteria. So that might end up being the beneficial role. However, it would have to be very specific fungi to survive within the body at all yet not damage the body, and likely also respond to and be suppressed by specific regulators that the body itself is producing.
  - tomhoward 7y ago
    Saccharomyces boulardii (“Brewer’s/baker’s yeast”) seems to be one such strain. It is commonly taken therapeutically to keep other fungi and bacteria under control. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharomyces_boulardii https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharomyces_boulardii
pygy_ 7y ago
That would gradually recruit antifungal-resistant yeasts, which can be very problematic (see Candida Auris which is thought to be the result of antifungal pressure in intensive agriculture). re. beneficial fungi, AFAIK there are no known species that are part of our natural microbiota, but there may be unknown benefits. S. Boulardii supplements are know to help deal with gut flora disruptions like infections or antibiotic treatments.
- rubyfan 7y ago
  S. Boulardii seemed to help me. I had a period of about a year with Crohn’s-like symptoms. I tried a lot of remedies, S. Boulardii did seem to help.
maxerickson 7y ago
They usually aren't perfectly well targeted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terbinafine#Side_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terbinafine#Side_effects Ivermectin apparently works directly on tumors, it isn't an antifungal... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5835698/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5835698/
- galangalalgol 7y ago
  Its an anti-helminth. Dewormer.
whb07 7y ago
Here is another point to consider: If you were growing say Shiitake mushrooms on a container, a "bad" or potential unknown fungus might move in first to it and out-compete with your crop and thereby ruin your attempt. But if your Shiitake mushrooms took hold and established a strong and healthy foothold the other mushrooms/spores/fungi will not be able to "move" in on after the fact. So if you took this to a human perhaps the "good" fungus needs to be healthy and well colonized to prevent other random things from trying to grow in areas they shouldn't be in.
- ASalazarMX 7y ago
  But I don't want shiitake mushrooms in my pancreas!
  - gnulinux 7y ago
    Why not?
    - thrownblown 7y ago
      Maybe I don't want to have a nasty conversation with my intestinal flora. shitake are notorious sht talkers.... I'll be leaving now.
  - asdf21 7y ago
    How do you know until you try.......???
- sjg007 7y ago
  This is the same thing as the gut microbiome.. You need healthy bacteria and now fungi in your digestive system.
- wnmurphy 7y ago
  Incidentally, many mushrooms have profound anti-cancer properties. Shiitake is one of them.
gumby 7y ago
Most, perhaps all antifungal, and in particular the most common, he azols, clear through the CY P450 pathway in your liver, unfortunately a very important pathway. Fungal diseases are hard to treat in part because doses high enough to be efficacious can lead to liver failure. I would be wary of gratuitous use of antifungals (and I am a developer of an antifungal treatment that entered clinical trials). I would use an anti-dandruff shampoo if I had that problem but that’s about my limit.
- graeme 7y ago
  Does this apply only to oral pharmaceutical antifungals? Or does it also apply to topical ones like clotrimazole for yeast, or food based oral antifungals like garlic?
  - jessriedel 7y ago
    At least in the context of toenail fungus, the topical treatments avoid risk to your liver (but generally don't work because it's hard to penetrate the nail and nail bed). However, even assuming a carcinogenic role for fungus, topical treatments are very unlikely to be useful for preventing internal cancers like pancreatic cancer.
  - gumby 7y ago
    Your dermis is designed to keep stuff out so though some of the topical will enter your system the amount is likely to be negligible (note: I am not a physician!!). Anyway topicals are used to treat fungi that attack dermal and nail tissue (e.g. tinia mentagrophytes or tinea pedis) so the whole point of using them is that you're applying the drug to the invader. This is why dandruff shampoo supposedly works. I wouldn't worry about eating garlic although I haven't seen any studies suggesting it might actually be efficacious. But it is delicious!
    - graeme 7y ago
      Thanks! That's what I figured about topicals. As for foods, I guess the question would have been better framed as IF a food has any antifungal effect, would it thus necessarily also stress the liver? Or is that merely a common property of anti-fungal meds so far, but not a property of things that kill fungus per se.
m-p-3 7y ago
From the article “But it’s probably too soon to add broad spectrum antifungals, many of which have lots of side effects, to cancer treatment regimens, even in experimental settings.”
mogadsheu 7y ago
I think that kind of reasoning is akin to saying we should eat pesticides because there aren’t beneficial pests in our bodies.. I did take an antifungal while sick, two actually. The first one made me break out in hives and the second one was a bit dehydrating (also couldn’t drink alcohol while on it). Would not recommend unless it’s necessary.
- selimthegrim 7y ago
  Having drunk alcohol on terbinafine because it was July 4 and I was an idiot I wouldn’t recommend the experience
UncleOxidant 7y ago
The article says there are lots of side effects, but anti-fungals are pretty commonly prescribed for things like toe-nail fungus and yeast infections. Liver function needs to be monitored. And yes, I'm sure there are likely beneficial fungi that live on/in humans. While beneficial bacteria have been studied for years now, we just don't know as much about beneficial fungi.

300bps 7y ago

Is there any downside to periodically taking strong antifungals? I type on computers for a living but I think in general everything in your body is in balance. For example, if you remove bacteria via an antibiotic you can get a fungal infection. It stands to reason that if you remove fungi via an antifungal the reduced competition for resources could cause an overgrowth of bacteria.

tyingq 7y ago

Ivermectine is for killing heartworms in dogs, right? Is it also an antifungal?

eth0up 7y ago
Aside from usage in many other beasts beyond dogs, ivermectin has a fairly wide and possibly growing range of applications, eg used externally to treat rosacea, internally for river blindness, etc. It has anthelmintic effects on many roundworms, but not flatworms. It's an acaricide and generally effective in treating scabies; also lice and bedbugs. Definitely keep pet spiders away from ivermectin! I've seen nothing (yet) indicating antifungal properties. Anyone considering self administration (a commenter somewhere above) should note the hepatotoxicity of the drug. Edit note: I am pretty sure ivermectin is the active ingredient in Revolution, an extremely popular medicine for dogs... and cats, combatting both heartworm and fleas and maybe more.

pfdietz 7y ago

Amphotericin B is really bad news ("Amphoterrible").

tomhoward 7y ago

This article [1] by Carl Zimmer discusses the topic. It doesn't offer a conclusive answer to your questions, but makes the point that there could well be a beneficial role for fungi in the body that we currently know little about as it hasn't been researched in much depth. I've personally had cause to research the human microbiome very deeply (i.e., as deeply as a layperson reasonably can) in the past 10+ years, and whilst the idea of eradicating all fungi has seemed compelling at times, I'm now much more on the side of taking moderate steps to keep things in balance. Evolution and complex systems being what they are, it's unlikely that you could completely remove one component of the system without causing unintended negative consequences. [1] https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/phenomena/2013/05/22/getting-to-know-your-inner-mushroom/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/phenomena/2013/05...

bdamm 7y ago
One thing fungi are generally good at is regulating bacteria. So that might end up being the beneficial role. However, it would have to be very specific fungi to survive within the body at all yet not damage the body, and likely also respond to and be suppressed by specific regulators that the body itself is producing.
- tomhoward 7y ago
  Saccharomyces boulardii (“Brewer’s/baker’s yeast”) seems to be one such strain. It is commonly taken therapeutically to keep other fungi and bacteria under control. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharomyces_boulardii https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharomyces_boulardii

pygy_ 7y ago

That would gradually recruit antifungal-resistant yeasts, which can be very problematic (see Candida Auris which is thought to be the result of antifungal pressure in intensive agriculture). re. beneficial fungi, AFAIK there are no known species that are part of our natural microbiota, but there may be unknown benefits. S. Boulardii supplements are know to help deal with gut flora disruptions like infections or antibiotic treatments.

rubyfan 7y ago
S. Boulardii seemed to help me. I had a period of about a year with Crohn’s-like symptoms. I tried a lot of remedies, S. Boulardii did seem to help.

maxerickson 7y ago

They usually aren't perfectly well targeted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terbinafine#Side_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terbinafine#Side_effects Ivermectin apparently works directly on tumors, it isn't an antifungal... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5835698/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5835698/

galangalalgol 7y ago
Its an anti-helminth. Dewormer.

whb07 7y ago

Here is another point to consider: If you were growing say Shiitake mushrooms on a container, a "bad" or potential unknown fungus might move in first to it and out-compete with your crop and thereby ruin your attempt. But if your Shiitake mushrooms took hold and established a strong and healthy foothold the other mushrooms/spores/fungi will not be able to "move" in on after the fact. So if you took this to a human perhaps the "good" fungus needs to be healthy and well colonized to prevent other random things from trying to grow in areas they shouldn't be in.

ASalazarMX 7y ago
But I don't want shiitake mushrooms in my pancreas!
- gnulinux 7y ago
  Why not?
  - thrownblown 7y ago
    Maybe I don't want to have a nasty conversation with my intestinal flora. shitake are notorious sht talkers.... I'll be leaving now.
- asdf21 7y ago
  How do you know until you try.......???
sjg007 7y ago
This is the same thing as the gut microbiome.. You need healthy bacteria and now fungi in your digestive system.
wnmurphy 7y ago
Incidentally, many mushrooms have profound anti-cancer properties. Shiitake is one of them.

gumby 7y ago

Most, perhaps all antifungal, and in particular the most common, he azols, clear through the CY P450 pathway in your liver, unfortunately a very important pathway. Fungal diseases are hard to treat in part because doses high enough to be efficacious can lead to liver failure. I would be wary of gratuitous use of antifungals (and I am a developer of an antifungal treatment that entered clinical trials). I would use an anti-dandruff shampoo if I had that problem but that’s about my limit.

graeme 7y ago
Does this apply only to oral pharmaceutical antifungals? Or does it also apply to topical ones like clotrimazole for yeast, or food based oral antifungals like garlic?
- jessriedel 7y ago
  At least in the context of toenail fungus, the topical treatments avoid risk to your liver (but generally don't work because it's hard to penetrate the nail and nail bed). However, even assuming a carcinogenic role for fungus, topical treatments are very unlikely to be useful for preventing internal cancers like pancreatic cancer.
- gumby 7y ago
  Your dermis is designed to keep stuff out so though some of the topical will enter your system the amount is likely to be negligible (note: I am not a physician!!). Anyway topicals are used to treat fungi that attack dermal and nail tissue (e.g. tinia mentagrophytes or tinea pedis) so the whole point of using them is that you're applying the drug to the invader. This is why dandruff shampoo supposedly works. I wouldn't worry about eating garlic although I haven't seen any studies suggesting it might actually be efficacious. But it is delicious!
  - graeme 7y ago
    Thanks! That's what I figured about topicals. As for foods, I guess the question would have been better framed as IF a food has any antifungal effect, would it thus necessarily also stress the liver? Or is that merely a common property of anti-fungal meds so far, but not a property of things that kill fungus per se.

m-p-3 7y ago

From the article “But it’s probably too soon to add broad spectrum antifungals, many of which have lots of side effects, to cancer treatment regimens, even in experimental settings.”

mogadsheu 7y ago

I think that kind of reasoning is akin to saying we should eat pesticides because there aren’t beneficial pests in our bodies.. I did take an antifungal while sick, two actually. The first one made me break out in hives and the second one was a bit dehydrating (also couldn’t drink alcohol while on it). Would not recommend unless it’s necessary.

selimthegrim 7y ago
Having drunk alcohol on terbinafine because it was July 4 and I was an idiot I wouldn’t recommend the experience

UncleOxidant 7y ago

The article says there are lots of side effects, but anti-fungals are pretty commonly prescribed for things like toe-nail fungus and yeast infections. Liver function needs to be monitored. And yes, I'm sure there are likely beneficial fungi that live on/in humans. While beneficial bacteria have been studied for years now, we just don't know as much about beneficial fungi.