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There's a difference between a public figure, such as a politician making such statements vs. an ordinary person expressing an opinion. Politicians have lots o

There's a difference between a public figure, such as a politician making such statements vs. an ordinary person expressing an opinion. Politicians have lots of privileges and visibility in society, and with those comes the responsibility of being accountable for what they say. >>A seven-judge panel found that far-right German politician Udo Pastörs had “intentionally stated untruths in order to defame the Jews and the persecution that they had suffered during the Second World War.”

tom_mellior 7y ago
> There's a difference between a public figure, such as a politician making such statements vs. an ordinary person expressing an opinion. Not sure why you say that, but AFAIK in all places where Holocaust denial is illegal, that applies to everybody equally. Yes, an ordinary person expressing the "opinion" that the Holocaust did not take place would be sentenced just like this local politician was. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial, I can't see any special cases for politicians or other public figures there.
- tom_mellior 7y ago
  Huh. Could a downvoter explain whether it's because they think my post is factually incorrect, or because they don't like the facts as presented?
  - throwwwwwwwaway 7y ago
    Alright. In France or in Germany, if you walked up to a police officer and started saying in a bright clear voice "The Holocaust didn't happen" (in French or German of course), what do you think would be the more likely response: 1) "You're under arrest" 2) "Fuck off, nerd"
    - tom_mellior 7y ago
      I can't say for France or Germany since I didn't invest the 30 seconds in a web search, but here is a statistic for Austria: https://kurier.at/politik/inland/335-rechtsextreme-taten-im-ersten-halbjahr-2018/400108634 https://kurier.at/politik/inland/335-rechtsextreme-taten-im-... (in German) 798 prosecutions for Nazi activities in 2017, 409 in the first half of 2018. These are not all politicians, nor all the occasional public figure like David Irving. They are average Joes, posting or saying something in public or drawing swastikas on things. The article doesn't say what activities were prosecuted in detail; the law prohibits much more than just Holocaust denial: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbotsgesetz_1947 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbotsgesetz_1947, but all of them are of the form "you are not allowed to say certain things". You might meet a right-wing policeman who doesn't mind, or you might have to put something in writing or be caught on camera, but overall these are not things that the justice system takes lightly.
      - throwwwwwwwaway 7y ago
        No you don't understand. When people get prosecuted for Nazi activities it's usually much more than merely saying "The Holocaust didn't happen." Americans in general really overestimate the extent to which these kinds of laws are enforced. This generally stems from a divide between the 'spirit of the law' (it's mainly meant to prohibit political figures from being openly Nazi) and the 'letter of the law' (thinking a policeman will literally handcuff you if you say 'The Holocaust didn't happen' to their face). Americans generally feel the need to spell out every little thing for fear of the law being gamed or selective enforcement (this is why EULAs and License agreements have obnoxious 20-page unreadable legalese crap), whereas continental Europe has a more relaxed approach to the spirit of the law and favors clarity through brevity. A similar misunderstanding arose when GDPR enforcement was looming.
        tom_mellior 7y ago
        I quoted figures. What do you have to support your claims?
- blue_devil 7y ago
  My point is that what public figures express (in public) should not be conflated with what a random person expresses online, say on Facebook etc. And in practice the two are conflated, and statements by politicians are used to censor the population at large (for example, the case above). The law you're referring to is - IMO - a violation of freedom of speech. _Unless_ you're a politician. Because then - in public - you are in your official capacity, so you don't have the same "freedom of speech" in that capacity - your statements carry a different weight (which is why you chose to be a politician supposedly.) This politician did not tell this to his wife at dinner at home. He made a speech on Remembrance Day in 2010. >>On Holocaust Remembrance Day in 2010, Pastörs, then a member of the local parliament in the German state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, made a speech in which he claimed the commemorations were “theater” and claimed that “the so-called Holocaust is being used for political and commercial purposes.”

tom_mellior 7y ago

> There's a difference between a public figure, such as a politician making such statements vs. an ordinary person expressing an opinion. Not sure why you say that, but AFAIK in all places where Holocaust denial is illegal, that applies to everybody equally. Yes, an ordinary person expressing the "opinion" that the Holocaust did not take place would be sentenced just like this local politician was. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial, I can't see any special cases for politicians or other public figures there.

tom_mellior 7y ago
Huh. Could a downvoter explain whether it's because they think my post is factually incorrect, or because they don't like the facts as presented?
- throwwwwwwwaway 7y ago
  Alright. In France or in Germany, if you walked up to a police officer and started saying in a bright clear voice "The Holocaust didn't happen" (in French or German of course), what do you think would be the more likely response: 1) "You're under arrest" 2) "Fuck off, nerd"
  - tom_mellior 7y ago
    I can't say for France or Germany since I didn't invest the 30 seconds in a web search, but here is a statistic for Austria: https://kurier.at/politik/inland/335-rechtsextreme-taten-im-ersten-halbjahr-2018/400108634 https://kurier.at/politik/inland/335-rechtsextreme-taten-im-... (in German) 798 prosecutions for Nazi activities in 2017, 409 in the first half of 2018. These are not all politicians, nor all the occasional public figure like David Irving. They are average Joes, posting or saying something in public or drawing swastikas on things. The article doesn't say what activities were prosecuted in detail; the law prohibits much more than just Holocaust denial: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbotsgesetz_1947 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbotsgesetz_1947, but all of them are of the form "you are not allowed to say certain things". You might meet a right-wing policeman who doesn't mind, or you might have to put something in writing or be caught on camera, but overall these are not things that the justice system takes lightly.
    - throwwwwwwwaway 7y ago
      No you don't understand. When people get prosecuted for Nazi activities it's usually much more than merely saying "The Holocaust didn't happen." Americans in general really overestimate the extent to which these kinds of laws are enforced. This generally stems from a divide between the 'spirit of the law' (it's mainly meant to prohibit political figures from being openly Nazi) and the 'letter of the law' (thinking a policeman will literally handcuff you if you say 'The Holocaust didn't happen' to their face). Americans generally feel the need to spell out every little thing for fear of the law being gamed or selective enforcement (this is why EULAs and License agreements have obnoxious 20-page unreadable legalese crap), whereas continental Europe has a more relaxed approach to the spirit of the law and favors clarity through brevity. A similar misunderstanding arose when GDPR enforcement was looming.
      - tom_mellior 7y ago
        I quoted figures. What do you have to support your claims?
blue_devil 7y ago
My point is that what public figures express (in public) should not be conflated with what a random person expresses online, say on Facebook etc. And in practice the two are conflated, and statements by politicians are used to censor the population at large (for example, the case above). The law you're referring to is - IMO - a violation of freedom of speech. _Unless_ you're a politician. Because then - in public - you are in your official capacity, so you don't have the same "freedom of speech" in that capacity - your statements carry a different weight (which is why you chose to be a politician supposedly.) This politician did not tell this to his wife at dinner at home. He made a speech on Remembrance Day in 2010. >>On Holocaust Remembrance Day in 2010, Pastörs, then a member of the local parliament in the German state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, made a speech in which he claimed the commemorations were “theater” and claimed that “the so-called Holocaust is being used for political and commercial purposes.”