4 ms·

When did the US start weaponizing pronouns? From a European standpoint this all seems extreme to the point of absurdity.

by nabdab 7y ago

aeorgnoieang 7y ago
I'm sure it'll show up on your shores soon enough.
- dr_dshiv 7y ago
  As an American in Europe, I honestly think this is uniquely American.
  - cc81 7y ago
    It is not, it exists in Sweden in a way as well.
    - yakshaving_jgt 7y ago
      Only because Sweden is obsessed with American media and culture.
  - aeorgnoieang 7y ago
    I hope so!
dwaltrip 7y ago
I don't know the details of the stackexchange case linked above. But, in general, it doesn't seem that complicated to me. The language you are using -- "weaponized pronouns" -- is pretty distorted. If one is aware of how someone prefers to be called and the preference is completely reasonable (such as a trans individual preferring their transitioned pronoun), then one is simply being an asshole by refusing. Not only that, they are doing so to a group that has historically been treated terribly by most of society -- essentially kicking someone while they are down. Innocent mistakes are one thing, but stubborn refusal to treat someone decently is inexcusable. P.S. I understand a very small number of vocal individuals may take things past requests for treating people decently, but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
- nabdab 7y ago
  Why would someone, care at that others refer to them (sorry I’m talking about a hypothetical person so I don’t know preferred pronoun) by name or gender neutral? If you know that I prefer to be addresses “their royal highness”(I do btw), does that make it rude of you to refer to me by name or as OP? I get calling someone who prefers he, she is insulting. But that’s not what the supposed crime was here. It was a moderator preferring gender neutral, which seems completely reasonably. And the language is perfectly fitting. Someone used preferred pronouns to get a moderator canned for just discussing the merits of the rules, not even breaking the yet un-published rules. That is a weapon.
  - qzxzxzxq 7y ago
    The Kim family, hailing from North Korea, cares very much how others refer to them. Fail to call the current boss "Great Leader", and you'll find yourself, and possibly your family, a social pariah, sent to the work camps for reeducation. That is the only other instance of policing third party speech that I am aware of. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_cult_of_personality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_cult_of_personali...
  - ictebres 7y ago
    You can’t refuse to use someone’s preferred pronoun just because you want to. If someone wants to be called he, using them is insulting and demeaning. You would be literally not accepting how he is. Obviously this is not the case in generic writing. But I don’t think that is how 2 people want to communicate.
    - braindeath 7y ago
      Yes! I absolutely can refuse to use someone's "preferred pronoun." I summarily reject your assertion that using the gender neutral and grammatically correct "they" in place of "he"/"she" (not them) to refer to anyone is ever insulting or demeaning. You can say it's insulting and I just don't agree that is true in general. Yelling loudly and with outrage doesn't make your claim stronger than mine. I am not rejecting anyone's gender, I am simply not acknowledging it because it is usually not germane to the discussion. It's not that I don't believe people deserve respect, trans or otherwise. I just don't think it is an appropriate point for discussion in most instances. If a white man says they wish to always be referred to as "the white guy" am I also obligated to do so? Is it not "accepting" of their whiteness if I don't use language to refer to it everytime? Especially so if they are on the internet and I can't even see them? I don't know what color you are. I really don't care. I have no interest in referring to your race when addressing you, likewise your gender. I communicate with people everyday and gender, race, creed, and nationality just never come up. And if someone insists on sharing their pronouns or their race or creed unsolicited, that is on them. That should not obligate me to do anything with it. Edit: I've been downvoted. But would anyone actually like to explain how referring to someone in a gender neutral way is somehow more insulting than referring to them in a race, religion, ethnicity, or any other identity-forming aspect neutral way? Things we take for granted all the time when we use the neutral (not just gender) pronouns them/they?
Avamander 7y ago
It's even harder to understand if your native language doesn't have neither gendered pronouns or gendered words.
- tomp 7y ago
  Or, alternatively, if it has gendered pronouns and gendered words. Even without any trans* politics, things can get very complicated...
seventhtiger 7y ago
They argue about it as a fundamental right (to respect on one side and free speech on the other) and it's just a quirk of English. What to do if the entire language is gendered?

When did the US start weaponizing pronouns? From a European standpoint this all seems extreme to the point of absurdity.

by nabdab 7y ago

When did the US start weaponizing pronouns? From a European standpoint this all seems extreme to the point of absurdity.

aeorgnoieang 7y ago

I'm sure it'll show up on your shores soon enough.

dr_dshiv 7y ago
As an American in Europe, I honestly think this is uniquely American.
- cc81 7y ago
  It is not, it exists in Sweden in a way as well.
  - yakshaving_jgt 7y ago
    Only because Sweden is obsessed with American media and culture.
- aeorgnoieang 7y ago
  I hope so!

dwaltrip 7y ago

I don't know the details of the stackexchange case linked above. But, in general, it doesn't seem that complicated to me. The language you are using -- "weaponized pronouns" -- is pretty distorted. If one is aware of how someone prefers to be called and the preference is completely reasonable (such as a trans individual preferring their transitioned pronoun), then one is simply being an asshole by refusing. Not only that, they are doing so to a group that has historically been treated terribly by most of society -- essentially kicking someone while they are down. Innocent mistakes are one thing, but stubborn refusal to treat someone decently is inexcusable. P.S. I understand a very small number of vocal individuals may take things past requests for treating people decently, but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

nabdab 7y ago
Why would someone, care at that others refer to them (sorry I’m talking about a hypothetical person so I don’t know preferred pronoun) by name or gender neutral? If you know that I prefer to be addresses “their royal highness”(I do btw), does that make it rude of you to refer to me by name or as OP? I get calling someone who prefers he, she is insulting. But that’s not what the supposed crime was here. It was a moderator preferring gender neutral, which seems completely reasonably. And the language is perfectly fitting. Someone used preferred pronouns to get a moderator canned for just discussing the merits of the rules, not even breaking the yet un-published rules. That is a weapon.
- qzxzxzxq 7y ago
  The Kim family, hailing from North Korea, cares very much how others refer to them. Fail to call the current boss "Great Leader", and you'll find yourself, and possibly your family, a social pariah, sent to the work camps for reeducation. That is the only other instance of policing third party speech that I am aware of. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_cult_of_personality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_cult_of_personali...
- ictebres 7y ago
  You can’t refuse to use someone’s preferred pronoun just because you want to. If someone wants to be called he, using them is insulting and demeaning. You would be literally not accepting how he is. Obviously this is not the case in generic writing. But I don’t think that is how 2 people want to communicate.
  - braindeath 7y ago
    Yes! I absolutely can refuse to use someone's "preferred pronoun." I summarily reject your assertion that using the gender neutral and grammatically correct "they" in place of "he"/"she" (not them) to refer to anyone is ever insulting or demeaning. You can say it's insulting and I just don't agree that is true in general. Yelling loudly and with outrage doesn't make your claim stronger than mine. I am not rejecting anyone's gender, I am simply not acknowledging it because it is usually not germane to the discussion. It's not that I don't believe people deserve respect, trans or otherwise. I just don't think it is an appropriate point for discussion in most instances. If a white man says they wish to always be referred to as "the white guy" am I also obligated to do so? Is it not "accepting" of their whiteness if I don't use language to refer to it everytime? Especially so if they are on the internet and I can't even see them? I don't know what color you are. I really don't care. I have no interest in referring to your race when addressing you, likewise your gender. I communicate with people everyday and gender, race, creed, and nationality just never come up. And if someone insists on sharing their pronouns or their race or creed unsolicited, that is on them. That should not obligate me to do anything with it. Edit: I've been downvoted. But would anyone actually like to explain how referring to someone in a gender neutral way is somehow more insulting than referring to them in a race, religion, ethnicity, or any other identity-forming aspect neutral way? Things we take for granted all the time when we use the neutral (not just gender) pronouns them/they?

Avamander 7y ago

It's even harder to understand if your native language doesn't have neither gendered pronouns or gendered words.

tomp 7y ago
Or, alternatively, if it has gendered pronouns and gendered words. Even without any trans* politics, things can get very complicated...

seventhtiger 7y ago

They argue about it as a fundamental right (to respect on one side and free speech on the other) and it's just a quirk of English. What to do if the entire language is gendered?