6 ms·

I don't know. HN has plenty of misinformation posted on it constantly. Countless posts that are objectively wrong, and in many cases it is done intentionally.

I don't know. HN has plenty of misinformation posted on it constantly. Countless posts that are objectively wrong, and in many cases it is done intentionally. I have seen lies supporting eugenics, lies about how quantum computing is a fake conspiracy, etc etc. And yet the mods only jump in when you're impolite by referring to OP with "you" and "you're" because it is a "personal attack". They are optimizing on the wrong problem, IMO. I would rather discuss with people who are snide rather than with liars who have an agenda. HN has its own "fake news" problems. And this is the society we are living in; you can say anything as long as it doesn't offend or hurt someone's feelings. Even if it is objectively fake horse shit.

chr1 7y ago
In your example if someone pointed out that quantum computers required some equations to hold with far greater precision than anything measured, so there is small but non-zero probability that it will turn out quantum computers can not work, would it be a lie that moderators should delete? I believe it's not moderators job to decide what is a lie and what is not, if you see a lie, write a truthful comment refuting it, that way you can convince people instead of trying to silence.
- vonmoltke 7y ago
  > I believe it's not moderators job to decide what is a lie and what is not codesushi42 didn't say it was. It said the system you describe still allows lies, myths, and misinformation to spread. The only mention of moderators was in the context of chastising the poster who calls the misinformation out. > if you see a lie, write a truthful comment refuting it, that way you can convince people instead of trying to silence The tools you referred to are tools to silence, so you are "trying to silence" every time you flag or downvote a post. As for refuting the misinformation, I regularly see posts doing this downvoted while the misinformation is upvoted[1]. This is particularly true in discussions on contentious topics. Thus, I'm not nearly as certain as you are that these tools would protect HN from a sufficiently dedicated group. [1] At least once, because I downvote it and the comment remains black.
  - codesushi42 7y ago
    Exactly this. HN is a cesspool of misinformation. Whether it comes from people pushing an agenda, or just plain ignorance. I take everything said here with a grain of salt, and fact check everything. Because I have seen some very creative and convincing misinformation here, that when researched doesn't hold up under scrutiny. My point is that people casually browsing this place are going to be infected by the misinformation and spread it to others. All while the mods overfit on whether someone's response wasn't polite enough, which in a lot of cases is biased to begin with. Stack Exchange is a much, MUCH more reliable source of information than the horse shit I see pranced around here on a daily basis. Their moderation system actually works because it empowers knowledgeable users.
    - tlb 7y ago
      I don't find this to be the case. Usually, when someone is wrong, they are quickly corrected. So when reading a thread, I rarely come away with an incorrect belief. Maybe some example would help me understand what you mean. Could you link to some clear misinformation on HN that wasn't convincingly refuted elsewhere in the thread?
      - codesushi42 7y ago
        Plenty examples here, even with people coming out of the woodwork to support eugenics under false pretenses: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20542738 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20542738 Look up some accounts (jlawson) and you will find they consistently post right wing BS here. Or just search HN for eugenics and see all the crazy claims made... Plenty other examples, but due to ignorance, like someone giving a long convincing explanation of the thermodynamics behind the efficiency of steam engines which sounded entirely convincing. But was complete utter horse shit once researched, and no one refuted it. But it was upvoted plenty.
        tlb 7y ago
        I looked in the places you suggested but none of them seem like cesspools of misinformation. Political opinions from across the right-left spectrum, if presented in a civil and substantive way and without fake facts, are not against the rules here. Extreme opinions tend to get downvoted pretty quickly, though.
dang 7y ago
We post thousands of moderation comments about things other personal attacks—though of course personal attacks are not ok on HN. I don't understand this reasoning where, if X is not ok, X must be the only thing moderators care about. Surely it is not so hard to understand that we have more than one rule. It's not against the rules to be wrong, though. How could this be otherwise? Do you think we have a truth detector?
- codesushi42 7y ago
  I don't understand this reasoning where, if X is not ok, X must be the only thing moderators care about. That is your reasoning, not mine. It's not against the rules to be wrong, though. How could this be otherwise? Do you think we have a truth detector? This smacks of the same kind of arrogant obliviousness that is insidious at Facebook and Twitter. Do you really think misinformation is not a problem there either? You counter the problem with a reputation system that actually works. See Stack Exchange. Also with better moderation on your effort. Maybe you should try searching HN for eugenics and see which gems you come across.
  - dang 7y ago
    > That is your reasoning, not mine It's what you seemed to be saying with "And yet the mods only jump in when". While I have you: you have a long history of breaking the HN guidelines by arguing in the flamewar style, directing acerbic swipes and personal insults at people, and so on. We've asked you many times to stop: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21105692 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21105692 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20709082 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20709082 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20559290 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20559290 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17932924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17932924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13605136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13605136 If you keep ignoring our requests instead of fixing this, we're going to ban you, just as we would any user who persisted in abusing HN this way. Other people posting bad things does not make it ok, and there's zero conflict between correcting misinformation—if that's what you're trying to do—and following the guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

chr1 7y ago

In your example if someone pointed out that quantum computers required some equations to hold with far greater precision than anything measured, so there is small but non-zero probability that it will turn out quantum computers can not work, would it be a lie that moderators should delete? I believe it's not moderators job to decide what is a lie and what is not, if you see a lie, write a truthful comment refuting it, that way you can convince people instead of trying to silence.

vonmoltke 7y ago
> I believe it's not moderators job to decide what is a lie and what is not codesushi42 didn't say it was. It said the system you describe still allows lies, myths, and misinformation to spread. The only mention of moderators was in the context of chastising the poster who calls the misinformation out. > if you see a lie, write a truthful comment refuting it, that way you can convince people instead of trying to silence The tools you referred to are tools to silence, so you are "trying to silence" every time you flag or downvote a post. As for refuting the misinformation, I regularly see posts doing this downvoted while the misinformation is upvoted[1]. This is particularly true in discussions on contentious topics. Thus, I'm not nearly as certain as you are that these tools would protect HN from a sufficiently dedicated group. [1] At least once, because I downvote it and the comment remains black.
- codesushi42 7y ago
  Exactly this. HN is a cesspool of misinformation. Whether it comes from people pushing an agenda, or just plain ignorance. I take everything said here with a grain of salt, and fact check everything. Because I have seen some very creative and convincing misinformation here, that when researched doesn't hold up under scrutiny. My point is that people casually browsing this place are going to be infected by the misinformation and spread it to others. All while the mods overfit on whether someone's response wasn't polite enough, which in a lot of cases is biased to begin with. Stack Exchange is a much, MUCH more reliable source of information than the horse shit I see pranced around here on a daily basis. Their moderation system actually works because it empowers knowledgeable users.
  - tlb 7y ago
    I don't find this to be the case. Usually, when someone is wrong, they are quickly corrected. So when reading a thread, I rarely come away with an incorrect belief. Maybe some example would help me understand what you mean. Could you link to some clear misinformation on HN that wasn't convincingly refuted elsewhere in the thread?
    - codesushi42 7y ago
      Plenty examples here, even with people coming out of the woodwork to support eugenics under false pretenses: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20542738 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20542738 Look up some accounts (jlawson) and you will find they consistently post right wing BS here. Or just search HN for eugenics and see all the crazy claims made... Plenty other examples, but due to ignorance, like someone giving a long convincing explanation of the thermodynamics behind the efficiency of steam engines which sounded entirely convincing. But was complete utter horse shit once researched, and no one refuted it. But it was upvoted plenty.
      - tlb 7y ago
        I looked in the places you suggested but none of them seem like cesspools of misinformation. Political opinions from across the right-left spectrum, if presented in a civil and substantive way and without fake facts, are not against the rules here. Extreme opinions tend to get downvoted pretty quickly, though.

dang 7y ago

We post thousands of moderation comments about things other personal attacks—though of course personal attacks are not ok on HN. I don't understand this reasoning where, if X is not ok, X must be the only thing moderators care about. Surely it is not so hard to understand that we have more than one rule. It's not against the rules to be wrong, though. How could this be otherwise? Do you think we have a truth detector?

codesushi42 7y ago
I don't understand this reasoning where, if X is not ok, X must be the only thing moderators care about. That is your reasoning, not mine. It's not against the rules to be wrong, though. How could this be otherwise? Do you think we have a truth detector? This smacks of the same kind of arrogant obliviousness that is insidious at Facebook and Twitter. Do you really think misinformation is not a problem there either? You counter the problem with a reputation system that actually works. See Stack Exchange. Also with better moderation on your effort. Maybe you should try searching HN for eugenics and see which gems you come across.
- dang 7y ago
  > That is your reasoning, not mine It's what you seemed to be saying with "And yet the mods only jump in when". While I have you: you have a long history of breaking the HN guidelines by arguing in the flamewar style, directing acerbic swipes and personal insults at people, and so on. We've asked you many times to stop: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21105692 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21105692 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20709082 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20709082 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20559290 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20559290 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17932924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17932924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13605136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13605136 If you keep ignoring our requests instead of fixing this, we're going to ban you, just as we would any user who persisted in abusing HN this way. Other people posting bad things does not make it ok, and there's zero conflict between correcting misinformation—if that's what you're trying to do—and following the guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html