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> Should this apply to other physical/genetic characteristics as well, such as ethnicity? Should Caucausians be able to change their physical appearance (via ta

> Should this apply to other physical/genetic characteristics as well, such as ethnicity? Should Caucausians be able to change their physical appearance (via tanning, etc...) to Native American Let's try... > Should this apply to other physical/genetic characteristics... you can change your physical characteristics, you can't (that I can think of) change your genetic ones. > ...such as ethnicity? Ethnicity, hmm. I don't know how to define that, so from wiki: "An ethnic group or ethnicity is a category of people who identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry or on similarities such as common language or dialect, history, society, culture or nation.[1][2] Ethnicity is often used synonymously with the term nation, particularly in cases of ethnic nationalism, and is separate from but related to the concept of races" Unless you pin down what you mean by ethnicity, I can't even begin answer. It's too broad. Ethnicity seems a social construction - I know a (lapsed) jew and she's ethnically one, but you couldn't tell from native english from looking at her (same as I can often tell a pole by looking, or a turk, or even some londoners), so is she because she was born one, or isn't she because she gave it up, or what? But, maybe. After all an american indian guy decided to 'identify' as a tiger <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_Cat> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_Cat>. While that's a very odd decision to me, I'm not going to step in and physically stop him. Would you? > cough Elizabeth Warren cough plesse leave politics out of this, ta, it's complex enough. > What sort of implications would that have, internationally? [...]. What are the second and third-order implications for how the world views American leadership? What?? Seriously? This is about people who feel they don't fit their body and you try to drag in this?And why do you assume I'm from the US? To try to answer your question differenty, are you suggesting that we don't necessarily do 'the right thing' morally because people are watching? Final question, have you ever met a trans person? Or understand what they can choose to undergo because they feel so wrong - they can go through a lot, it's not an easy thing.

CapricornNoble 7y ago
>>>Unless you pin down what you mean by ethnicity, I can't even begin answer. Let's go with common genealogy or phenotype. >>>Ethnicity seems a social construction So in the absence of society you would not be able to physically distinguish between these two gentlemen [1][2] and would classify them as the same ethnicity? You cannot discern objectively-measurable distinctions between the appearances of these two faces? Facial recognition software demonstrates otherwise. [3] Every face has measurements, which cluster with other similar faces. I doubt it would be difficult to map each of those clusters with what we consider an "ethnicity". >>>But, maybe. After all an american indian guy decided to 'identify' as a tiger <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_Cat> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_Cat>. While that's a very odd decision to me, I'm not going to step in and physically stop him. Would you? Did he receive any LEGAL benefits normally given to large predatory felines? If no, then intervention isn't required. If yes, then absolutely I would oppose it. "Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken" - Tyler Durden. >>plesse leave politics out of this, ta, it's complex enough. Regardless of her politics, Elizabeth Warren is a public, high-profile figure and a perfect example of an American using their "internal" identity for legal gain. Rachel Dolezal is an alternative example. Both demonstrate that these aren't really hypothetical issues, but present-day issues crossing the spectrum of not only social issues but also medical and cosmetic technology (elective, plastic surgery, skin treatments, etc...). >>>This is about people who feel they don't fit their body and you try to drag in this? I try to keep a long-term, macroscopic view on social issues. But honestly, if I were to elaborate on my position it would be a long, kinda-rambling mess, so I'll table that point of the discussion. >>>And why do you assume I'm from the US? Oddly enough I'm usually fighting the same bias inherent in a US (and especially SFV/SFBA-heavy) website. I'm American but don't live there. So....touché on that one. >>>Final question, have you ever met a trans person? Of course. I live in Asia. Anyone who has spent more than a few minutes in a bar in Thailand, Philippines, or the bigger cities in Japan has been hit on by a trans person. >>>Or understand what they can choose to undergo because they feel so wrong - they can go through a lot, it's not an easy thing. Every human is operating within the restrictions of their physical form. My rackmate at OCS was a short dude (like 5'4") and years later he told me he considered leg extension surgery....the same kind that killed the guy in [4]). Short guys experience all sorts of emotional abuse and nobody really gives two shits about them either. Should my friend declare that he is 6'1" because he FEELS taller? Should we update all of his government documents and forms of identification as such? Of course not. Feelings are ephemeral, fleeting, and subjective. Step off a cliff and say to yourself "I FEEL like I shouldn't fall...I identify as a bird." Does gravity comply? No. Life is hard. Get harder. [1]http://thewarriorfitness.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Warrior-Fitness-Beach-Pic-43.jpg http://thewarriorfitness.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Warr... [2]https://tinyurl.com/yyoamjl4 https://tinyurl.com/yyoamjl4 [3]https://github.com/ageitgey/face_recognition https://github.com/ageitgey/face_recognition [4]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21082702 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21082702
- sysbin 7y ago
  Most trans people I know have committed suicide when they cannot "successfully" transition and for matching their identity (one's identity is very personal & social in life). I can only imagine there's a group of short people that wish they were tall and commit suicide. I personally have never had someone tell me they were so distraught about being short that they were considering suicide. Although if it were the case "I would be alright" if medical professionals found it necessary to do a surgery for making the person taller and so the suicidal ideation goes away. I know some midgets have committed suicide and find it sad because in the future we likely will be able to prevent a person developing into a small skeleton. Social dynamics about how a person looks matters. I think society would be better if surgery wasn't considered such a taboo by people thinking that most of the time the surgeries are pointless. Many people rebound to a greater person when they fix something visual about them and that has somehow held them back in life. Limitations are "going away" with the outcome of science progressing in the medical community. Similar to religious bigots decreasing in numbers but they do enough damage on their way out.
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  This is a solid and constructive answer and I'd love to go into it in detail but I won't have time. I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to do justice to it, but let me try. > So in the absence of society you would not be able to physically distinguish between these two gentlemen [1][2] and would classify them as the same ethnicity? They have different phenotypes, and are clearly distinguishable visually. Now, if they were brought up in the same place (say in the same town in the US), and both met a blind person, would the blind person be able to tell the difference? Some white people choose to turn a darker colour with a tan - if they could go completely black, would it matter? (other features wouldn't change of course, but you see my point). That's not a good answer, so let me try a different one. To me ethnicity matters because people choose to make it matter. The difference between a cis- and trans-woman does not matter to me, but it seems to matter to you. These things matter only if you choose to let them matter. And a few weeks ago I asked a trans girl out because I like her (answer: no. As bloody usual). > Did he receive any LEGAL benefits normally given to large predatory felines? If no, then intervention isn't required. If yes, then absolutely I would oppose it. More likely, did he lose human benefits and be eligible to be shot or put in a zoo? That's a good point, well taken! > Elizabeth Warren [...] "internal" identity for legal gain Legal gain? Didn't think she got anything except some vague cachet due to american indians being kewl. And because that is IMO crap because such identity is meaningless to me, she gets no cachet from me and IMO should get none from anyone else. > Rachel Dolezal Yep. But pretending to be black only mattered because it matters in US society. > Both demonstrate that these aren't really hypothetical issues, but present-day issues crossing the spectrum of not only social issues but also medical and cosmetic technology (elective, plastic surgery, skin treatments, etc...). True. And maybe I'm sidestepping the issue, but it only matters because people think it matters. Being a cis- or trans-woman only matters if people care. I don't, and I don't see why it should to anyone else (I'm not saying it shouldn't, I just don't see why it should). > But honestly, if I were to elaborate on my position it would be a long, kinda-rambling mess, so I'll table that point of the discussion. My position is as above - I don't care - but it would be great to sit down and talk with you. > Every human is operating within the restrictions of their physical form [...] Good point. > Short guys experience all sorts of emotional abuse and nobody really gives two shits about them either Actually I'm surprised at that. Once children grow into adults, they usually judge people more on what's inside than out. But again, it's what society thinks, and if it didn't care, it wouldn't matter. Now for some easy ones: > Should my friend declare that he is 6'1" because he FEELS taller? No > Should we update all of his government documents and forms of identification as such? if he got surgically taller, yes, otherwise no. I think you point is if a bloke feels like a woman, is he immediately one? I don't know. If he got surgery + hormones and transitioned, then yes. But I can elaborate on that a bit. One person I know is becoming a guy. She prefers to be called 'he' but recognises that they don't look like one so doesn't mind when 'she' slips out. As they look like a woman but prefer to be referred to as a bloke, I will do what she prefers, but you would, or you wouldn't? I'd call it bad manners to go against their wishes and hurt their feeling. Someone I knew referred to a very effeminate guy as 'it', as they weren't in his view male or female, so: 'it'. That pissed a few of us off. It's about feelings. So to your next point... > Feelings are ephemeral, fleeting, [...] I disagree. Briefly, I had a large chunk of my life wrecked with clinical depression. That's pure 'feeling' gone wrong. YOu cannot imagine how much that hurts. Feelings are the core of our being, that distinguishes us from philosophical zombies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie Feelings are all their is that matters, because without feelings, there is nothing. We are computers. > No. Life is hard. Get harder. Many years ago I knew a woman who lost both twins at birth. Suppose that tragedy (she was suicidal. BTW nothing ephemeral or brief about that) could have been avoided medically, do we do that, or do we say to her "toughen up" and let them die? Obviously we change what we can for the better. Centuries ago we lived with arthritis, gout, migraines... now far less so because we can do something about it. So why should the feeling of being born into the wrong body type be different? See sysbin's answer for why (IMO) it isn't. OK, I'm not going to take this much further because this whole subject is frankly going to take a day of discussion for both of us which don't have. I do not think you're wrong, I'm just trying to understand your view, and my answer above is... not good, I appreciate that, but it's my best shot. BTW, I really did find your answer measured and thoughtful.

CapricornNoble 7y ago

>>>Unless you pin down what you mean by ethnicity, I can't even begin answer. Let's go with common genealogy or phenotype. >>>Ethnicity seems a social construction So in the absence of society you would not be able to physically distinguish between these two gentlemen [1][2] and would classify them as the same ethnicity? You cannot discern objectively-measurable distinctions between the appearances of these two faces? Facial recognition software demonstrates otherwise. [3] Every face has measurements, which cluster with other similar faces. I doubt it would be difficult to map each of those clusters with what we consider an "ethnicity". >>>But, maybe. After all an american indian guy decided to 'identify' as a tiger <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_Cat> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_Cat>. While that's a very odd decision to me, I'm not going to step in and physically stop him. Would you? Did he receive any LEGAL benefits normally given to large predatory felines? If no, then intervention isn't required. If yes, then absolutely I would oppose it. "Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken" - Tyler Durden. >>plesse leave politics out of this, ta, it's complex enough. Regardless of her politics, Elizabeth Warren is a public, high-profile figure and a perfect example of an American using their "internal" identity for legal gain. Rachel Dolezal is an alternative example. Both demonstrate that these aren't really hypothetical issues, but present-day issues crossing the spectrum of not only social issues but also medical and cosmetic technology (elective, plastic surgery, skin treatments, etc...). >>>This is about people who feel they don't fit their body and you try to drag in this? I try to keep a long-term, macroscopic view on social issues. But honestly, if I were to elaborate on my position it would be a long, kinda-rambling mess, so I'll table that point of the discussion. >>>And why do you assume I'm from the US? Oddly enough I'm usually fighting the same bias inherent in a US (and especially SFV/SFBA-heavy) website. I'm American but don't live there. So....touché on that one. >>>Final question, have you ever met a trans person? Of course. I live in Asia. Anyone who has spent more than a few minutes in a bar in Thailand, Philippines, or the bigger cities in Japan has been hit on by a trans person. >>>Or understand what they can choose to undergo because they feel so wrong - they can go through a lot, it's not an easy thing. Every human is operating within the restrictions of their physical form. My rackmate at OCS was a short dude (like 5'4") and years later he told me he considered leg extension surgery....the same kind that killed the guy in [4]). Short guys experience all sorts of emotional abuse and nobody really gives two shits about them either. Should my friend declare that he is 6'1" because he FEELS taller? Should we update all of his government documents and forms of identification as such? Of course not. Feelings are ephemeral, fleeting, and subjective. Step off a cliff and say to yourself "I FEEL like I shouldn't fall...I identify as a bird." Does gravity comply? No. Life is hard. Get harder. [1]http://thewarriorfitness.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Warrior-Fitness-Beach-Pic-43.jpg http://thewarriorfitness.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Warr... [2]https://tinyurl.com/yyoamjl4 https://tinyurl.com/yyoamjl4 [3]https://github.com/ageitgey/face_recognition https://github.com/ageitgey/face_recognition [4]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21082702 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21082702

sysbin 7y ago
Most trans people I know have committed suicide when they cannot "successfully" transition and for matching their identity (one's identity is very personal & social in life). I can only imagine there's a group of short people that wish they were tall and commit suicide. I personally have never had someone tell me they were so distraught about being short that they were considering suicide. Although if it were the case "I would be alright" if medical professionals found it necessary to do a surgery for making the person taller and so the suicidal ideation goes away. I know some midgets have committed suicide and find it sad because in the future we likely will be able to prevent a person developing into a small skeleton. Social dynamics about how a person looks matters. I think society would be better if surgery wasn't considered such a taboo by people thinking that most of the time the surgeries are pointless. Many people rebound to a greater person when they fix something visual about them and that has somehow held them back in life. Limitations are "going away" with the outcome of science progressing in the medical community. Similar to religious bigots decreasing in numbers but they do enough damage on their way out.
tempguy9999 7y ago
This is a solid and constructive answer and I'd love to go into it in detail but I won't have time. I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to do justice to it, but let me try. > So in the absence of society you would not be able to physically distinguish between these two gentlemen [1][2] and would classify them as the same ethnicity? They have different phenotypes, and are clearly distinguishable visually. Now, if they were brought up in the same place (say in the same town in the US), and both met a blind person, would the blind person be able to tell the difference? Some white people choose to turn a darker colour with a tan - if they could go completely black, would it matter? (other features wouldn't change of course, but you see my point). That's not a good answer, so let me try a different one. To me ethnicity matters because people choose to make it matter. The difference between a cis- and trans-woman does not matter to me, but it seems to matter to you. These things matter only if you choose to let them matter. And a few weeks ago I asked a trans girl out because I like her (answer: no. As bloody usual). > Did he receive any LEGAL benefits normally given to large predatory felines? If no, then intervention isn't required. If yes, then absolutely I would oppose it. More likely, did he lose human benefits and be eligible to be shot or put in a zoo? That's a good point, well taken! > Elizabeth Warren [...] "internal" identity for legal gain Legal gain? Didn't think she got anything except some vague cachet due to american indians being kewl. And because that is IMO crap because such identity is meaningless to me, she gets no cachet from me and IMO should get none from anyone else. > Rachel Dolezal Yep. But pretending to be black only mattered because it matters in US society. > Both demonstrate that these aren't really hypothetical issues, but present-day issues crossing the spectrum of not only social issues but also medical and cosmetic technology (elective, plastic surgery, skin treatments, etc...). True. And maybe I'm sidestepping the issue, but it only matters because people think it matters. Being a cis- or trans-woman only matters if people care. I don't, and I don't see why it should to anyone else (I'm not saying it shouldn't, I just don't see why it should). > But honestly, if I were to elaborate on my position it would be a long, kinda-rambling mess, so I'll table that point of the discussion. My position is as above - I don't care - but it would be great to sit down and talk with you. > Every human is operating within the restrictions of their physical form [...] Good point. > Short guys experience all sorts of emotional abuse and nobody really gives two shits about them either Actually I'm surprised at that. Once children grow into adults, they usually judge people more on what's inside than out. But again, it's what society thinks, and if it didn't care, it wouldn't matter. Now for some easy ones: > Should my friend declare that he is 6'1" because he FEELS taller? No > Should we update all of his government documents and forms of identification as such? if he got surgically taller, yes, otherwise no. I think you point is if a bloke feels like a woman, is he immediately one? I don't know. If he got surgery + hormones and transitioned, then yes. But I can elaborate on that a bit. One person I know is becoming a guy. She prefers to be called 'he' but recognises that they don't look like one so doesn't mind when 'she' slips out. As they look like a woman but prefer to be referred to as a bloke, I will do what she prefers, but you would, or you wouldn't? I'd call it bad manners to go against their wishes and hurt their feeling. Someone I knew referred to a very effeminate guy as 'it', as they weren't in his view male or female, so: 'it'. That pissed a few of us off. It's about feelings. So to your next point... > Feelings are ephemeral, fleeting, [...] I disagree. Briefly, I had a large chunk of my life wrecked with clinical depression. That's pure 'feeling' gone wrong. YOu cannot imagine how much that hurts. Feelings are the core of our being, that distinguishes us from philosophical zombies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie Feelings are all their is that matters, because without feelings, there is nothing. We are computers. > No. Life is hard. Get harder. Many years ago I knew a woman who lost both twins at birth. Suppose that tragedy (she was suicidal. BTW nothing ephemeral or brief about that) could have been avoided medically, do we do that, or do we say to her "toughen up" and let them die? Obviously we change what we can for the better. Centuries ago we lived with arthritis, gout, migraines... now far less so because we can do something about it. So why should the feeling of being born into the wrong body type be different? See sysbin's answer for why (IMO) it isn't. OK, I'm not going to take this much further because this whole subject is frankly going to take a day of discussion for both of us which don't have. I do not think you're wrong, I'm just trying to understand your view, and my answer above is... not good, I appreciate that, but it's my best shot. BTW, I really did find your answer measured and thoughtful.