3 ms·

No proof of Biden corruption? How about the video where he brags about extorting Ukraine to fire the special prosecutor investigating the company his son was b

by gfosco 7y ago

No proof of Biden corruption? How about the video where he brags about extorting Ukraine to fire the special prosecutor investigating the company his son was being paid by? "I'm leaving in 6 hours... if he's not fired, you're not getting the billion dollars." What evidence goes to the contrary?

kmonsen 7y ago
A few things: - Even if Biden is guilty, what Trump is doing is clearly illegal, as said by everyone looking at the law - GOP was supporting Biden on this issue at the time - Even the remove prosecutor in Ukraine says there is no Biden story here.
- gfosco 7y ago
  You say "clearly illegal" like it means something, or it's true. At best, you could say that you think it is illegal. What law? Where is the violation? "by everyone looking" is another silly falsity. Lots of people looking at this see nothing even remotely illegal.
  - markdown 7y ago
    "It is illegal for any person to solicit, accept, or receive anything of value from a foreign national in connection with a U.S. election" - Ellen L Weintraub, chair of the Federal Election Commission https://twitter.com/EllenLWeintraub/status/1139309394968096768 https://twitter.com/EllenLWeintraub/status/11393093949680967...
    - gfosco 7y ago
      That's a fine law. However, there's a vast distance between that quote and convincing evidence of a violation in this instance.
      - markdown 7y ago
        > However, there's a vast distance between that quote and convincing evidence of a violation in this instance. Of course there isn't any evidence that you'll accept. Nevermind that the whole world saw him solicit Russian assistance in hacking his opponent during the last elections and that the video evidence of him doing so is available for anyone to view at any time.
- thucydidesofusa 7y ago
  If Biden is guilty, how is it illegal for Trump to ask Ukraine to investigate Biden's crimes?!
rgbrenner 7y ago
Biden's son served on the board of Barisma.. a company that was being investigated for corruption. When Shokin inherited the case, he did nothing with it. Just let it sit for a year+. He did that with a lot of corruption cases, which is why western leaders (EU leaders, IMF, and Biden) wanted Shokin removed. Removing Shokin hurts Barisma.. Shokin was standing in the way of the case being prosecuted. So if you think Biden was doing this for his son, the question is: why put pressure on Ukraine to remove the prosecutor that's preventing Barisma from being prosecuted? It makes no sense. If Biden wanted to help his son, Shokin was exactly the person he wanted in that position. (Also note, Barisma was being investigated for actions taken before Biden's son was hired.. Biden's son was not the target of the investigation.)
- jakeogh 7y ago
  1st hand account from Shokin: https://i.redd.it/wp66quhos4p31.jpg https://i.redd.it/wp66quhos4p31.jpg parent quote source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urTk6O4c0mU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urTk6O4c0mU
  - rgbrenner 7y ago
    There are records in the Ukrainian prosecutor's office, and statements on the record by his colleagues and deputies that he did nothing with the case. In 2015 he literally took 0 actions on the barisma case. Literally nothing. He didn't even touch the file. His deputy (Kasko) resigned in frustration because Shokin made so little progress in the corruption cases he promised to pursue. And he says there were no complaints about him... but he refused to assist the UK in a separate corruption case against Barisma... the IMF wanted him gone; the ERDC; the entire G7; and the Obama admin (not just Biden) because he failed in his job. There were protests in Ukraine demanding his dismissal: https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-protest-prosecutor-shokin-dismissal/27639981.html https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-protest-prosecutor-shokin-di... Shokin's statement (that you linked to in part) was made to help Firtash in a court case in Austria. Firtash is another Ukrainian energy tycoon being investigated for corruption, bribery, and money laundering. The fact that he's going to bat to help corrupt individuals avoid charges kind of says it all (the same people that as a prosecutor he would have been in charge of prosecuting--Firtash was also under investigation at the same time.. he did nothing on that case either).
anon9001 7y ago
I know HN isn't really the place for this, but since you asked and I did a fairly deep dive into this just to know what's going on, here's what seems to have happened, complete with evidence to the contrary: From Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Shokin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Shokin: > Shokin claimed in May 2019 that he had been investigating Burisma Holdings.[28][29][30][31] However, Vitaliy Kasko, who had been Shokin's deputy overseeing international cooperation before resigning in February 2016 citing corruption in the office, provided documents to Bloomberg News indicating that under Shokin, the investigation into Burisma had been dormant.[32] Also, the investigation into Burisma only pertained to events happening before Hunter Biden joined the company.[33] I believe that's true, and the cited sources seem to check out, and predate this whole scandal. It's worth noting that a lot of these Ukrainian politicians are pretty sketchy and they have a big problem with corruption, so there are other geopolitical interests at play with these Ukrainian political figures. To be sure I'm not being duped by Wikipedia, I find Google News searches for articles about the key players in any controversy that were published before the MSM started caring give a way clearer picture of what's going on. It can help you figure out who's spinning what. It's helpful to know that Shokin was widely condemned for being a corrupt prosecutor that, ironically, wasn't pursuing corruption cases against political allies. From March 2016: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/eu-hails-sacking-of-ukraine-s-prosecutor-viktor-shokin-1.2591190 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/eu-hails-sackin... It's pretty clear that Shokin was a known corrupt actor, for real reasons, prompting domestic and European outrage in ways that Biden would have had great difficulty manufacturing. In May 2019, there was also a controversy in Ukraine that Lutsenko (the new prosecutor) was acting improperly by manufacturing allegations against Biden: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-13/ukraine-prosecutor-made-up-biden-allegation-kiev-lawmaker-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-13/ukraine-p... By July, Trump's pressure was working: https://www.unian.info/world/10630023-lutsenko-shokin-help-trump-by-handing-over-dirt-on-biden-media.html https://www.unian.info/world/10630023-lutsenko-shokin-help-t... I don't read Ukrainian, so some of the local reporting isn't clear to me, but the English reporting from Ukraine seems like they're telling the whole story as they know it. Also, from US reporting: https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/10/02/donald-trump-ukraine-hunter-biden-guilty-poor-judgment-editorials-debates/3828375002/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/10/02/donald-trum... > Joe Biden said he has never spoken to his son about the directorship. Hunter Biden told the New Yorker that his father simply said, "I hope you know what you are doing." Joe knows his kid is a fuckup that's trying to cash in on the family name. I don't think he would stake his reputation on doing something corrupt for his kid and then brag about it. It's far more likely that was Joe is just bragging about his own amazing diplomacy skills. In reality, he was just doing what the administration told him to do, after the groundwork to remove Shokin had been being laid by EU and Ukranian interests way in advance. It's pretty clear that Hunter Biden was never being investigated, but the likely-corrupt gas company did have a prior history of being investigated for corruption issues. It's also clear that Hunter Biden has skated by his whole life on being Joe Biden's kid, and his moral compass may be lacking. There is no evidence that Joe was actually involved in anything corrupt. Additionally, there's a raging debate on the left about how what Hunter Biden did is completely unacceptable, but not illegal: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/09/hunter-bidens-legal-socially-acceptable-corruption/598804/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/09/hunter-bid... The unfortunate truth is that Hunter's actions probably were legal, and that's a real problem, but you can't condemn Joe for his kid trying to cash in on the family name. So yes, the video of Joe Biden isn't great, but it's because he was bragging about how great he is at negotiating in a Q&A section. And really, he was taking credit for other people's work to remove Shokin, even if he actually was the final tipping point in making Ukraine take action. Not one of his finer moments, but it's not the admission of corruption you think it is. Here's the full video at the time you're referencing. If you watch more of it, he's actually pretty informed about this whole Ukraine/Russia business: https://youtu.be/Q0_AqpdwqK4?t=3100 https://youtu.be/Q0_AqpdwqK4?t=3100 The bit you're referring to is at the tail-end of the Q&A and he's obviously loosened up a bit before he starts telling his likely-exaggerated war story about getting Shokin fired.

by gfosco 7y ago

kmonsen 7y ago

A few things: - Even if Biden is guilty, what Trump is doing is clearly illegal, as said by everyone looking at the law - GOP was supporting Biden on this issue at the time - Even the remove prosecutor in Ukraine says there is no Biden story here.

gfosco 7y ago
You say "clearly illegal" like it means something, or it's true. At best, you could say that you think it is illegal. What law? Where is the violation? "by everyone looking" is another silly falsity. Lots of people looking at this see nothing even remotely illegal.
- markdown 7y ago
  "It is illegal for any person to solicit, accept, or receive anything of value from a foreign national in connection with a U.S. election" - Ellen L Weintraub, chair of the Federal Election Commission https://twitter.com/EllenLWeintraub/status/1139309394968096768 https://twitter.com/EllenLWeintraub/status/11393093949680967...
  - gfosco 7y ago
    That's a fine law. However, there's a vast distance between that quote and convincing evidence of a violation in this instance.
    - markdown 7y ago
      > However, there's a vast distance between that quote and convincing evidence of a violation in this instance. Of course there isn't any evidence that you'll accept. Nevermind that the whole world saw him solicit Russian assistance in hacking his opponent during the last elections and that the video evidence of him doing so is available for anyone to view at any time.
thucydidesofusa 7y ago
If Biden is guilty, how is it illegal for Trump to ask Ukraine to investigate Biden's crimes?!

rgbrenner 7y ago

Biden's son served on the board of Barisma.. a company that was being investigated for corruption. When Shokin inherited the case, he did nothing with it. Just let it sit for a year+. He did that with a lot of corruption cases, which is why western leaders (EU leaders, IMF, and Biden) wanted Shokin removed. Removing Shokin hurts Barisma.. Shokin was standing in the way of the case being prosecuted. So if you think Biden was doing this for his son, the question is: why put pressure on Ukraine to remove the prosecutor that's preventing Barisma from being prosecuted? It makes no sense. If Biden wanted to help his son, Shokin was exactly the person he wanted in that position. (Also note, Barisma was being investigated for actions taken before Biden's son was hired.. Biden's son was not the target of the investigation.)

jakeogh 7y ago
1st hand account from Shokin: https://i.redd.it/wp66quhos4p31.jpg https://i.redd.it/wp66quhos4p31.jpg parent quote source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urTk6O4c0mU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urTk6O4c0mU
- rgbrenner 7y ago
  There are records in the Ukrainian prosecutor's office, and statements on the record by his colleagues and deputies that he did nothing with the case. In 2015 he literally took 0 actions on the barisma case. Literally nothing. He didn't even touch the file. His deputy (Kasko) resigned in frustration because Shokin made so little progress in the corruption cases he promised to pursue. And he says there were no complaints about him... but he refused to assist the UK in a separate corruption case against Barisma... the IMF wanted him gone; the ERDC; the entire G7; and the Obama admin (not just Biden) because he failed in his job. There were protests in Ukraine demanding his dismissal: https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-protest-prosecutor-shokin-dismissal/27639981.html https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-protest-prosecutor-shokin-di... Shokin's statement (that you linked to in part) was made to help Firtash in a court case in Austria. Firtash is another Ukrainian energy tycoon being investigated for corruption, bribery, and money laundering. The fact that he's going to bat to help corrupt individuals avoid charges kind of says it all (the same people that as a prosecutor he would have been in charge of prosecuting--Firtash was also under investigation at the same time.. he did nothing on that case either).

anon9001 7y ago

I know HN isn't really the place for this, but since you asked and I did a fairly deep dive into this just to know what's going on, here's what seems to have happened, complete with evidence to the contrary: From Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Shokin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Shokin: > Shokin claimed in May 2019 that he had been investigating Burisma Holdings.[28][29][30][31] However, Vitaliy Kasko, who had been Shokin's deputy overseeing international cooperation before resigning in February 2016 citing corruption in the office, provided documents to Bloomberg News indicating that under Shokin, the investigation into Burisma had been dormant.[32] Also, the investigation into Burisma only pertained to events happening before Hunter Biden joined the company.[33] I believe that's true, and the cited sources seem to check out, and predate this whole scandal. It's worth noting that a lot of these Ukrainian politicians are pretty sketchy and they have a big problem with corruption, so there are other geopolitical interests at play with these Ukrainian political figures. To be sure I'm not being duped by Wikipedia, I find Google News searches for articles about the key players in any controversy that were published before the MSM started caring give a way clearer picture of what's going on. It can help you figure out who's spinning what. It's helpful to know that Shokin was widely condemned for being a corrupt prosecutor that, ironically, wasn't pursuing corruption cases against political allies. From March 2016: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/eu-hails-sacking-of-ukraine-s-prosecutor-viktor-shokin-1.2591190 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/eu-hails-sackin... It's pretty clear that Shokin was a known corrupt actor, for real reasons, prompting domestic and European outrage in ways that Biden would have had great difficulty manufacturing. In May 2019, there was also a controversy in Ukraine that Lutsenko (the new prosecutor) was acting improperly by manufacturing allegations against Biden: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-13/ukraine-prosecutor-made-up-biden-allegation-kiev-lawmaker-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-13/ukraine-p... By July, Trump's pressure was working: https://www.unian.info/world/10630023-lutsenko-shokin-help-trump-by-handing-over-dirt-on-biden-media.html https://www.unian.info/world/10630023-lutsenko-shokin-help-t... I don't read Ukrainian, so some of the local reporting isn't clear to me, but the English reporting from Ukraine seems like they're telling the whole story as they know it. Also, from US reporting: https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/10/02/donald-trump-ukraine-hunter-biden-guilty-poor-judgment-editorials-debates/3828375002/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/10/02/donald-trum... > Joe Biden said he has never spoken to his son about the directorship. Hunter Biden told the New Yorker that his father simply said, "I hope you know what you are doing." Joe knows his kid is a fuckup that's trying to cash in on the family name. I don't think he would stake his reputation on doing something corrupt for his kid and then brag about it. It's far more likely that was Joe is just bragging about his own amazing diplomacy skills. In reality, he was just doing what the administration told him to do, after the groundwork to remove Shokin had been being laid by EU and Ukranian interests way in advance. It's pretty clear that Hunter Biden was never being investigated, but the likely-corrupt gas company did have a prior history of being investigated for corruption issues. It's also clear that Hunter Biden has skated by his whole life on being Joe Biden's kid, and his moral compass may be lacking. There is no evidence that Joe was actually involved in anything corrupt. Additionally, there's a raging debate on the left about how what Hunter Biden did is completely unacceptable, but not illegal: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/09/hunter-bidens-legal-socially-acceptable-corruption/598804/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/09/hunter-bid... The unfortunate truth is that Hunter's actions probably were legal, and that's a real problem, but you can't condemn Joe for his kid trying to cash in on the family name. So yes, the video of Joe Biden isn't great, but it's because he was bragging about how great he is at negotiating in a Q&A section. And really, he was taking credit for other people's work to remove Shokin, even if he actually was the final tipping point in making Ukraine take action. Not one of his finer moments, but it's not the admission of corruption you think it is. Here's the full video at the time you're referencing. If you watch more of it, he's actually pretty informed about this whole Ukraine/Russia business: https://youtu.be/Q0_AqpdwqK4?t=3100 https://youtu.be/Q0_AqpdwqK4?t=3100 The bit you're referring to is at the tail-end of the Q&A and he's obviously loosened up a bit before he starts telling his likely-exaggerated war story about getting Shokin fired.