7 ms·

Nginx does have paid-only features, so I don't really think your "purity move" hit the target... The harsh truth is that even Free Software costs money to writ

Nginx does have paid-only features, so I don't really think your "purity move" hit the target... The harsh truth is that even Free Software costs money to write, and developers should be paid.

TAForObvReasons 7y ago
nginx has an ad-free truly FOSS offering under BSD-2-Clause (not AGPL or SSPL) that isn't intentionally hamstrung. Their paid features are for larger and more advanced deployments. They don't try to claim a different non-commercial license for the binaries. It's definitely a massive step up compared to how Caddy operated in the past.
- dullgiulio 7y ago
  If you start an nginx reverse proxy and it cannot reach upstream, nginx won't start at all. Only way to fix this is to pay. Some friends got hit by this: they forgot some upstream from a domain that got removed, at the next nginx restart the whole server didn't come up. Basically you have to pay for basic error handling. It's not "more advanced deployments" at all.
  - heavenlyblue 7y ago
    >> If you start an nginx reverse proxy and it cannot reach upstream, nginx won't start at all. Only way to fix this is to pay. I don't understand - if my upstream is down my nginx returns the usual "503 Service Unavailable". Are there any particulars to the configuration you are describing?
    - Goz3rr 7y ago
      It only happens when nginx is starting and the hostname of the upstream doesn't resolve, doesn't have to be reachable. I believe just specifying a resolver should fix it, but another common workaround is to use a variable for the hostname
    - dspillett 7y ago
      The problem isn't when the host is down, it is when nginx can't lookup the address for the host. If your DNS records are OK and your resolvers are working this isn't a problem, but if nginx (re)starts while you are having connectivity issues or if a DNS record that your config relies upon has been dropped it won't start any service until that one is edited. Workarounds include using addresses not names (not practical at scale), running a local resolver that will hand out the last known address if it can't see the resolvers it normally forwards requests to or gets an NXDOMAIN response (extra hassle and technically breaks DNS so make sure other things don't use that resolver), or just ignoring the problem because it very rarely happens (though for some setups it is more likely than in others). In my (current) uses of nginx it isn't a problem at all, though a concern springs to mind that might affect me later: if it only fails on startup, does that imply it isn't ever refreshing name->address mappings at all in normal operation so that if a server it is proxying for moves address that proxy config will start to fail until nginx is restarted? Any nginx experts want to comment so I can be lazy and not test or otherwise research this myself?
      - mpol 7y ago
        You describe an environment that is quite scaled up. I would assume that if there is scale, there is money. And a license to the commercial version is what, 2 salaried hours a year? It is easy to save time and money. I am sorry, but I cannot see this as a big problem.
        dspillett 7y ago
        We'd strayed off topic and were discussing an issue in nginx. Basic per-instance subscriptions for that are $2,500/yr each for small numbers of instances which is somewhat more than a couple of salaried hours. Still not a large amount for a company with a profit making product, of course, but companies with profit making products are fewer and farther between than companies would like, and for a one-man-band or other small business trying to boot-strap something bigger, there isn't the same drop/ocean ratio. Also, the implied problem (this still needs confirming/contradicting, so I might be barking up the wrong end of the stick) that it may not be updating name->address resolution regularly during normal operation (otherwise why does this only cause failure on start-up?) might not by fixed by the extra modules enabled by the paid licence.
  - guiriduro 7y ago
    Presumably you could write some basic error handling and distribute under the same or even stricter oss terms? It would be fairly simple to 'uncripple' it in other words, either with contributed code, or to wrap the upstream in haproxy itself to ensure availability.
    - StreamBright 7y ago
      You could but this is not in question here. >> Their paid features are for larger and more advanced deployments. This is simple not true.
  - jaredklewis 7y ago
    I have been using nginx pretty heavily in a wide variety of use cases for coming up on 10 years and I have never encountered this issue. I have also always used the free version of nginx. I of course don't dispute that this limitation exists, but I'm just pointing out that the need for this type of error handling is, in my experience, quite rare. There may be some very specific use cases where this is a deal breaker, but I would say the claim that the free version of nginx does not include "basic error handling" is a pretty grotesque exaggeration.
    - Operyl 7y ago
      The scenario described only occurs if they’re using host names for their upstreams, and that hostname is no longer resolvable. It results in an error during config parsing, preventing reloads and fresh starts. Moral of the story: don’t use DNS names in upstreams unless you’re sure they’ll always resolve I guess.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - lmeyerov 7y ago
        That's tough: we do docker compose, so upstream = named container, and so init can be wonky (ex: dev). We have started strangling Nginx out for caddy bc this + LE (no pay gate on ssl autorenewal). These are increasingly basic things for modern apps.
  - angrygoat 7y ago
    This is particularly annoying when using nginx to sit in front of a bunch of uwsgi (python) docker containers. if one of the containers doesn't start for some reason, nginx will abort.
  - Murrawhip 7y ago
    I avoid this by running configtest before the reload - it checks it can get the upstream ips.
  - esotericn 7y ago
    > Only way to fix this is to pay. Nope. resolver 1.1.1.1; set $resolved_upstream whatever-it-is.lan; proxy_pass http://$resolved_upstream; I am for sale, FWIW. ;) The first one's on me.
ownagefool 7y ago
As a developer, I like to get paid, but the issue of monetising something you already gave away for free is more complicated than that and the idea that somebody can build an effective business on something like caddy is probably a tad unrealstic. There's a long list of free shit that we're building on top of. It's a bit like somebody sticking a cherry ontop of a free cake then trying to charge for it. This is why a lot of people just go down the consultancy route. I imagine Matt Holt will be better off simply from being the author of a famous project. Don't get me wrong though, if the project can monetise Caddy, all power to them.
- ignoramous 7y ago
  Kevin Kelly of Wired magazine fame once wrote a piece called Better than Free which I think kind of distills key points against competing with anything that can be had for free on/from the internet [0], which are: 1. Immediacy (pioneer?) 2. Personalization (bespoke?) 3. Interpretation (consultancy?) 4. Authenticity (brand?) 5. Accessibility (SaaS?) 6. Embodiment (concierge/luxury?) 7. Findability (marketing?) I'm not sure if anyone else has written abt this, but I'd like to read more. [0] https://kk.org/thetechnium/better-than-fre/ https://kk.org/thetechnium/better-than-fre/
  - coldtea 7y ago
    Yes, basically this translates to that if you write a FOSS program and give it for free, you can start a side business for it with 10x the effort (marketing, polish, etc) needed than if you were selling it proprietarily, for 1/10 the profits...
  - blattimwind 7y ago
    > Kevin Kelly of Wired magazine fame once wrote a piece called Better than Free which I think kind of distills key points against competing with anything that can be had for free on/from the internet [0], which are: Or maybe, you know, just have a better product. Case in point: NLEs. There are a whole bunch of free and sometimes open source NLEs, most of which just aren't particularly good.
manigandham 7y ago
Software takes effort. Whether you want to get paid for that effort is a decision each developer can make, and many choose to contribute freely without payment. It's their prerogative. There is no "should" about it.

Nginx does have paid-only features, so I don't really think your "purity move" hit the target... The harsh truth is that even Free Software costs money to write, and developers should be paid.

TAForObvReasons 7y ago

nginx has an ad-free truly FOSS offering under BSD-2-Clause (not AGPL or SSPL) that isn't intentionally hamstrung. Their paid features are for larger and more advanced deployments. They don't try to claim a different non-commercial license for the binaries. It's definitely a massive step up compared to how Caddy operated in the past.

dullgiulio 7y ago
If you start an nginx reverse proxy and it cannot reach upstream, nginx won't start at all. Only way to fix this is to pay. Some friends got hit by this: they forgot some upstream from a domain that got removed, at the next nginx restart the whole server didn't come up. Basically you have to pay for basic error handling. It's not "more advanced deployments" at all.
- heavenlyblue 7y ago
  >> If you start an nginx reverse proxy and it cannot reach upstream, nginx won't start at all. Only way to fix this is to pay. I don't understand - if my upstream is down my nginx returns the usual "503 Service Unavailable". Are there any particulars to the configuration you are describing?
  - Goz3rr 7y ago
    It only happens when nginx is starting and the hostname of the upstream doesn't resolve, doesn't have to be reachable. I believe just specifying a resolver should fix it, but another common workaround is to use a variable for the hostname
  - dspillett 7y ago
    The problem isn't when the host is down, it is when nginx can't lookup the address for the host. If your DNS records are OK and your resolvers are working this isn't a problem, but if nginx (re)starts while you are having connectivity issues or if a DNS record that your config relies upon has been dropped it won't start any service until that one is edited. Workarounds include using addresses not names (not practical at scale), running a local resolver that will hand out the last known address if it can't see the resolvers it normally forwards requests to or gets an NXDOMAIN response (extra hassle and technically breaks DNS so make sure other things don't use that resolver), or just ignoring the problem because it very rarely happens (though for some setups it is more likely than in others). In my (current) uses of nginx it isn't a problem at all, though a concern springs to mind that might affect me later: if it only fails on startup, does that imply it isn't ever refreshing name->address mappings at all in normal operation so that if a server it is proxying for moves address that proxy config will start to fail until nginx is restarted? Any nginx experts want to comment so I can be lazy and not test or otherwise research this myself?
    - mpol 7y ago
      You describe an environment that is quite scaled up. I would assume that if there is scale, there is money. And a license to the commercial version is what, 2 salaried hours a year? It is easy to save time and money. I am sorry, but I cannot see this as a big problem.
      - dspillett 7y ago
        We'd strayed off topic and were discussing an issue in nginx. Basic per-instance subscriptions for that are $2,500/yr each for small numbers of instances which is somewhat more than a couple of salaried hours. Still not a large amount for a company with a profit making product, of course, but companies with profit making products are fewer and farther between than companies would like, and for a one-man-band or other small business trying to boot-strap something bigger, there isn't the same drop/ocean ratio. Also, the implied problem (this still needs confirming/contradicting, so I might be barking up the wrong end of the stick) that it may not be updating name->address resolution regularly during normal operation (otherwise why does this only cause failure on start-up?) might not by fixed by the extra modules enabled by the paid licence.
- guiriduro 7y ago
  Presumably you could write some basic error handling and distribute under the same or even stricter oss terms? It would be fairly simple to 'uncripple' it in other words, either with contributed code, or to wrap the upstream in haproxy itself to ensure availability.
  - StreamBright 7y ago
    You could but this is not in question here. >> Their paid features are for larger and more advanced deployments. This is simple not true.
- jaredklewis 7y ago
  I have been using nginx pretty heavily in a wide variety of use cases for coming up on 10 years and I have never encountered this issue. I have also always used the free version of nginx. I of course don't dispute that this limitation exists, but I'm just pointing out that the need for this type of error handling is, in my experience, quite rare. There may be some very specific use cases where this is a deal breaker, but I would say the claim that the free version of nginx does not include "basic error handling" is a pretty grotesque exaggeration.
  - Operyl 7y ago
    The scenario described only occurs if they’re using host names for their upstreams, and that hostname is no longer resolvable. It results in an error during config parsing, preventing reloads and fresh starts. Moral of the story: don’t use DNS names in upstreams unless you’re sure they’ll always resolve I guess.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - lmeyerov 7y ago
      That's tough: we do docker compose, so upstream = named container, and so init can be wonky (ex: dev). We have started strangling Nginx out for caddy bc this + LE (no pay gate on ssl autorenewal). These are increasingly basic things for modern apps.
- angrygoat 7y ago
  This is particularly annoying when using nginx to sit in front of a bunch of uwsgi (python) docker containers. if one of the containers doesn't start for some reason, nginx will abort.
- Murrawhip 7y ago
  I avoid this by running configtest before the reload - it checks it can get the upstream ips.
- esotericn 7y ago
  > Only way to fix this is to pay. Nope. resolver 1.1.1.1; set $resolved_upstream whatever-it-is.lan; proxy_pass http://$resolved_upstream; I am for sale, FWIW. ;) The first one's on me.

ownagefool 7y ago

As a developer, I like to get paid, but the issue of monetising something you already gave away for free is more complicated than that and the idea that somebody can build an effective business on something like caddy is probably a tad unrealstic. There's a long list of free shit that we're building on top of. It's a bit like somebody sticking a cherry ontop of a free cake then trying to charge for it. This is why a lot of people just go down the consultancy route. I imagine Matt Holt will be better off simply from being the author of a famous project. Don't get me wrong though, if the project can monetise Caddy, all power to them.

ignoramous 7y ago
Kevin Kelly of Wired magazine fame once wrote a piece called Better than Free which I think kind of distills key points against competing with anything that can be had for free on/from the internet [0], which are: 1. Immediacy (pioneer?) 2. Personalization (bespoke?) 3. Interpretation (consultancy?) 4. Authenticity (brand?) 5. Accessibility (SaaS?) 6. Embodiment (concierge/luxury?) 7. Findability (marketing?) I'm not sure if anyone else has written abt this, but I'd like to read more. [0] https://kk.org/thetechnium/better-than-fre/ https://kk.org/thetechnium/better-than-fre/
- coldtea 7y ago
  Yes, basically this translates to that if you write a FOSS program and give it for free, you can start a side business for it with 10x the effort (marketing, polish, etc) needed than if you were selling it proprietarily, for 1/10 the profits...
- blattimwind 7y ago
  > Kevin Kelly of Wired magazine fame once wrote a piece called Better than Free which I think kind of distills key points against competing with anything that can be had for free on/from the internet [0], which are: Or maybe, you know, just have a better product. Case in point: NLEs. There are a whole bunch of free and sometimes open source NLEs, most of which just aren't particularly good.

manigandham 7y ago

Software takes effort. Whether you want to get paid for that effort is a decision each developer can make, and many choose to contribute freely without payment. It's their prerogative. There is no "should" about it.