7 ms·
There are companies that will pay near FANG levels (maybe 10-15% haircut) without subjecting yourself to onerous completion of hundreds of LeetCode problems. Th
by JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
There are companies that will pay near FANG levels (maybe 10-15% haircut) without subjecting yourself to onerous completion of hundreds of LeetCode problems. There are other options, and we should be aware of them. You'll still need to prove you can code, but the questions we ask have practical application to our codebases: we use recursion and trees, for example, so we ask questions about those.
Other companies will treat you as more of a human, and less as a cog. In my current job, I asked to see production code when interviewing. I flipped over every stone I could, to know what I was getting into. I saw the good and the bad. FANGs? You must prove yourself to gatekeepers before even knowing if there are teams with personalities you will agree with. You have no guarantee there's something on the other side of the gatekeepers, that you're even remotely interested in.
Money is important, but for a small haircut you can have better WLB, less competitive peers (though still be growing in your career: you can challenge yourself, without being surrounded by hyper-competitive personality types), amazing culture, and a greater level of transparency.
- el_benhameen 7y agoDo you have any favorites, or any places to look?
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y agoCategorically, (and this is part personal experience, so sample bias), the kind of companies I'm talking about in my parent comment are about to go public (multiple rounds of investing), recently went public, etc. They have a good amount of process to them, but not too much. Silos aren't fortified. There's less direction, but more personal ownership. For someone like me, who doesn't have the most polished communication skills (but is technically proficient), I'm in a position where I can make an impact -- whereas at FANG-type companies, I'd just get ignored because there were too many cooks in the kitchen; too many A-type personalities. At these slightly smaller places, you have a better chance of getting a seat at the table, and you have more opportunity to contribute to projects that play to your strengths.
- bradlys 7y agoCan you list some examples of actual companies? Because, I haven't seen any here in SV. Everyone and their mom asks leetcode AFAICT.
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y agoI interviewed with Lyft for a front end SWE role and got no leetcode questions. I ran through a bunch of 45-minute "make-this-thing-in-React" panels, and passed all with flying colors. That's only one example, but the type of questions I find unusually challenging (dynamic programming) -- the only time I was asked those, was at Google.
- usaar333 7y agoI wouldn't expect frontend to get random DP questions at any company (well you never know with Google..) I interviewed a couple of years ago at Lyft (for a backend team) and definitely got FAANG-class systems whiteboard questions.
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y agoGoogle doesn't hire front end software engineers specifically. They hire general-purpose leetcoding machines (e.g, people that can can crank out DP problems), then assign those people to work on front end tasks.
- otras 7y agoFor a data point, when I applied and interviewed for a frontend-focused position at Google ~1 year ago, I had the option of one of my interviews being a front-end specific interview that would focus on FE rather than algorithms.
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y agoThat interview track contains the DP-type problems. So now, not only do you have to show your DS&A algorithms skills, you need to showcase your front-end skills. If you interview as a backend engineer, you'll get more algorithmic questions, but overall question set will cover less breath and a similar level of depth.
- usaar333 7y agoGreat post, though a few nits. > There are companies that will pay near FANG levels (maybe 10-15% haircut) without subjecting yourself to onerous completion of hundreds of LeetCode problems. Some even pay more. I wouldn't say FAANG companies even have the highest pay - a lot of the top-tier unicorns are in the same ballpark range. > FANGs? You must prove yourself to gatekeepers before even knowing if there are teams with personalities you will agree with. This is not universally true. From experience, while Google does this for their HQ, they don't for remote offices (where there's more risk you can't find the right personalities). Amazon's Principal Engineer interview loop is conducted by the targeted team. (I actually think this is true for other levels as well). > Money is important, but for a small haircut you can have better WLB, less competitive peers Might I ask what companies fit this profile? It seems like a rare find for any company to both pay a lot but not be competitive.
- m0zg 7y ago>> From experience, while Google does this for their HQ, they don't for remote offices This is not true. Google interview experience is identical everywhere. Source: spent 6+ years at Google, not in HQ.
- usaar333 7y ago/shrug. When I was considering positions in SF a few years back, I was chatting with hiring managers I'd be under first before going through any whiteboard interviews. Maybe things have changed?
- m0zg 7y agoYeah, you can chat with whoever you like if you're reasonably senior, but then you do the same exact interview as everybody else. That "chat" was just a "chat". It wasn't a part of the hiring process. There are likely exceptions at the truly stratospheric levels, for people whose credentials aren't debatable, but for 99.99% of people it's all the same 5-person loop with a whiteboard or a Chromebook.
- jgalentine007 7y agoIt's almost like it's easier to start your own company than to get hired at one of these places and actually be happy.
- peferron 7y agoStarting your own company is easy for sure! Starting your own successful company is something else, and I found it much harder than getting into FANG, but it requires very different skills and I'm sure some people are better at the former.
- blablabla123 7y agoTrue, even in countries with high burocracy like Germany starting a company isn't more difficult than doing a tax declaration. One more option is to do freelance though, that's somehow a mix of both worlds.
- democracy 7y agoMaybe it's not easier, but I feel that for some it could be a great motivator after certain age...
- edmack 7y agoyes!
- selfipaprazzi 7y agoIf you have the privilege, then yeah absolutely.
- whycombagator 7y ago> we use recursion and trees, for example, so we ask questions about those. Could you provide some examples of questions you ask (or perhaps point to similar types of questions)?
- bradleyjg 7y agolevels.fyi is currently showing $466k median offer total comp for L6 (staff SWE) at google. Who is paying $395k-$420k to IC hires without FAANG style interviews? The only other companies paying that to IC hires that I know of are in the financial industry and that interview process is even worse.
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y agoI'm more mid-level in my career, but this a great point. Maybe my strategy in my parent comment, only works to a certain level. Beyond that, perhaps you do have to move into FANG's. There very well could be limits I haven't reached yet.
- electricslpnsld 7y ago> The only other companies paying that to IC hires that I know of are in the financial industry and that interview process is even worse. OpenAI is paying way more than 420K for ICs [1]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/19/technology/artificial-intelligence-salaries-openai.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/19/technology/artificial-int...
- wolco 7y agoYou normally don't move into a L6 position from the outside either.
- chaboud 7y agoI know some at Staff SWE, Amazon PE, etc who came from outside. In specialist groups it feels pretty common. Once you're at level at one of the heavies, it feels like people move at level, too.
- bradleyjg 7y agoMy understanding is that it is rare as compared to lower levels but far from impossible. The data points at levels seem to bear that out. Whereas in some other, smaller companies there are perhaps one or two ICs at that pay level, they have been at the company for a decade, and hold all the tribal knowledge. No one ever gets hired into that type of position.
- xfitm3 7y agoCan confirm. I get FAANG pay as a remote worker in a low COL state. It's a cool place.
- wyldfire 7y agoWorking for whom?
- xfitm3 7y agoSorry, rather not say. We are ~1000 employees.
- person_of_color 7y agoHow did you go remote?
- cmonnow 7y agoGitLab something ? AFAIK the only company that is both remote and pay friendly.
- JshWright 7y agoGitLab is not great for remote pay (especially if you live in a low cost area). I work remotely, and would take a big cut if I were to move to a similar position at GitLab.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- agumonkey 7y agolow cost of living I suppose ?
- selfipaprazzi 7y agoCare to share specific names?
- samfisher83 7y agoI don't know why amazon, apple, Microsoft, and netflix are put on the same level as Facebook and google. Facebook and Google just pay more.
- agumonkey 7y ago> gatekeepers is this a theme that isn't uncommon in the industry ? I felt that way forever but I didn't want to make impatient conclusions.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- sanderjd 7y agoGoogle employee, totally speaking for myself. You have a couple things mixed in here, some of which ring true to me and others very false. The true ones are the stuff about the interview process. I think a day of whiteboard programming is a poor way to assess experienced candidates. It does make you feel like a cog. (I also don't really know how to design an alternative process that doesn't increase the level of bias.) But most of your stuff about what it's like after you accept an offer rings very false. I haven't worked anyplace with better work life balance (and relatedly, really good family leave benefits) or more opportunities for challenging work and career growth. I don't find it hyper competitive (but I'm never sure how much this is a function of where I'm located or what I work on). You're right about transparency though. Having a full view of what's going on at my company is something I miss from previous jobs.
- scarface74 7y agoWhen you work for a company as large as Google unless you are very senior, you are a cog. I am not making a value judgement. I work at a small B2B SAAS company. We bill an implementation fee, an ongoing licensing cost, and costs per feature. If I create a new feature for a customer whether it’s a one off integration or something that will be in the product, everyone from the CEO to the customer knows how much value I personally bring to the company. That doesn’t scale and can’t work in a larger company.
- scarface74 7y agoCare to name those companies?
- dominotw 7y ago> There are companies that will pay near FANG levels (maybe 10-15% haircut) I don't agree with this statement that companies outside of FANGs don't do Leetcode interviews. Leetcode disease has spread to almost all corners of the industry. everyone everywhere is doing leetcode interviews. > without subjecting yourself to onerous completion of hundreds of LeetCode problems. Sorry but this is bad advice. >we use recursion and trees ok but doesn't everyone though?