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Getting high deliverability is actually incredibly complicated. Urban legend. You need a dedicated IP address to send mail from, which you need to be whitelis

by moe 16y ago

Getting high deliverability is actually incredibly complicated. Urban legend. You need a dedicated IP address to send mail from, which you need to be whitelisted by the big ESPs That is nonsense. Nobody reaches out to the ESPs to have their IPs "whitelisted" in advance. You reach out when, if and after you've been blacklisted, in order to get unlisted. To get it whitelisted, you need to "warm it up" before you start using it properly. Nonsense. You need to be very careful about setting the right headers. You need reverse DNS configured correctly, you need SPF and DomainKeys set up Yes, there's a few things to watch out for, but it's all pretty well documented nowadays and you only have to do it once. SPF is pretty easy with http://old.openspf.org/wizard.html http://old.openspf.org/wizard.html you need to make sure the IP/domain you are sending from hasn't previously been used for spam A quick check at a few of the largest blacklists (spamhaus et al) takes all of 5 minutes. Another 5 minutes that you have to spend exactly once. [..further marketing pitch for MTA SaaS snipped..] Well, to sum this up. It seems many people have a strong misconception of what SendGrid, MailGun and friends actually do. You don't magically get higher deliverability only because your mail is passing through them. They don't have mythical "whitelist" slots at the ESPs. They're not even on the radar of the ESPs. What you get from SendGrid et al is a (hopefully) properly configured MTA and DNS, to push your mail through. From there your outbound mail is suspect to all the usual blacklisting and scrutiny at the receiving endpoints. And that's all - no black magic at work here.

robert_mygengo 16y ago
>>> "You don't magically get higher deliverability only because your mail is passing through them. They don't have mythical "whitelist" slots at the ESPs. They're not even on the radar of the ESPs." That's absolutely right, you don't. But email deliverability turned from a massive mystery and headache for us, into a sure-fire deal, the day after we implemented SendGrid. We develop translation/localization related apps, not email apps. So for us that's cool :)
- moe 16y ago
  If they're a good deal for you then there's no arguing with that. I didn't mean to say they have no value proposition at all; the API and stats they provide can sure be useful for some. All I was saying is that their raw deliverability is no different to running your own server. And your own server doesn't charge a few pennies per mail...
  - robert_mygengo 16y ago
    Sure, I think it's a valid point. No beef there.
  - 9lessonslabs 16y ago
    Valid
bobds 16y ago
> That is nonsense. Nobody reaches out to the ESPs to have their IPs "whitelisted" in advance. You reach out when, if and after you've been blacklisted, in order to get unlisted. That's nonsense, lots of people do that. Only you don't usually go direct to the service provider, see following links: http://www.returnpath.net/commercialsender/certification/ http://www.returnpath.net/commercialsender/certification/ http://www.spamhauswhitelist.com/en/ http://www.spamhauswhitelist.com/en/ http://www.certified-senders.eu/csa_html/en/266.htm http://www.certified-senders.eu/csa_html/en/266.htm
- mike-cardwell 16y ago
  http://dnswl.org/ http://dnswl.org/
- moe 16y ago
  That's nonsense, lots of people do that. Lots of people also believe in astrology. Anyone is free to do what they deem good for their karma, you just shouldn't expect a measurable impact towards your deliverability. The big ESPs don't look at these lists.
  - bobds 16y ago
    > The big ESPs don't look at these lists. Some of them do. AOL uses GoodMailSystems. http://postmaster.aol.com/Postmaster.Whitelist.php http://postmaster.aol.com/Postmaster.Whitelist.php http://www.goodmailsystems.com/ http://www.goodmailsystems.com/ Hotmail uses ReturnPath. http://mail.live.com/mail/services.aspx#Safelist http://mail.live.com/mail/services.aspx#Safelist Yahoo seems to run their own. I remember them using one of the big ones but I can't find any mention in their help pages now. http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/mail/postmaster/bulkv2.html http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/mail/postmaster/bulkv2.html Google only asks for best practices, but it's possibly they look at some of the whitelists for more data. https://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=81126 https://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=81126
    - moe 16y ago
      Oh my, do I have to put it even more bluntly to get the point across: These commercial whitelists are effectively extortion scams and affiliate rings. Their sole purpose is to extract money from you. They're businesses, that is their business model. The value they provide in return is rather minimal - unless getting e-mail out is at the very core of your business and you need to pull every last string to absolutely maximize it. Otherwise there are cheaper ways to get reasonable deliverability even at AOL and Hotmail. The default deliverability is already quite good, which is what services like SendGrid largely bargain on. I firmly doubt SendGrid signs each of their customers up for the aforementioned whitelists. They probably offer "assistance" with the process, which probably amounts to sending you a link to a nice HowTo document, and which probably yields them a small affiliate kickback when you actually follow through.

by moe 16y ago

robert_mygengo 16y ago

>>> "You don't magically get higher deliverability only because your mail is passing through them. They don't have mythical "whitelist" slots at the ESPs. They're not even on the radar of the ESPs." That's absolutely right, you don't. But email deliverability turned from a massive mystery and headache for us, into a sure-fire deal, the day after we implemented SendGrid. We develop translation/localization related apps, not email apps. So for us that's cool :)

moe 16y ago
If they're a good deal for you then there's no arguing with that. I didn't mean to say they have no value proposition at all; the API and stats they provide can sure be useful for some. All I was saying is that their raw deliverability is no different to running your own server. And your own server doesn't charge a few pennies per mail...
- robert_mygengo 16y ago
  Sure, I think it's a valid point. No beef there.
- 9lessonslabs 16y ago
  Valid

bobds 16y ago

> That is nonsense. Nobody reaches out to the ESPs to have their IPs "whitelisted" in advance. You reach out when, if and after you've been blacklisted, in order to get unlisted. That's nonsense, lots of people do that. Only you don't usually go direct to the service provider, see following links: http://www.returnpath.net/commercialsender/certification/ http://www.returnpath.net/commercialsender/certification/ http://www.spamhauswhitelist.com/en/ http://www.spamhauswhitelist.com/en/ http://www.certified-senders.eu/csa_html/en/266.htm http://www.certified-senders.eu/csa_html/en/266.htm

mike-cardwell 16y ago
http://dnswl.org/ http://dnswl.org/
moe 16y ago
That's nonsense, lots of people do that. Lots of people also believe in astrology. Anyone is free to do what they deem good for their karma, you just shouldn't expect a measurable impact towards your deliverability. The big ESPs don't look at these lists.
- bobds 16y ago
  > The big ESPs don't look at these lists. Some of them do. AOL uses GoodMailSystems. http://postmaster.aol.com/Postmaster.Whitelist.php http://postmaster.aol.com/Postmaster.Whitelist.php http://www.goodmailsystems.com/ http://www.goodmailsystems.com/ Hotmail uses ReturnPath. http://mail.live.com/mail/services.aspx#Safelist http://mail.live.com/mail/services.aspx#Safelist Yahoo seems to run their own. I remember them using one of the big ones but I can't find any mention in their help pages now. http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/mail/postmaster/bulkv2.html http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/mail/postmaster/bulkv2.html Google only asks for best practices, but it's possibly they look at some of the whitelists for more data. https://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=81126 https://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=81126
  - moe 16y ago
    Oh my, do I have to put it even more bluntly to get the point across: These commercial whitelists are effectively extortion scams and affiliate rings. Their sole purpose is to extract money from you. They're businesses, that is their business model. The value they provide in return is rather minimal - unless getting e-mail out is at the very core of your business and you need to pull every last string to absolutely maximize it. Otherwise there are cheaper ways to get reasonable deliverability even at AOL and Hotmail. The default deliverability is already quite good, which is what services like SendGrid largely bargain on. I firmly doubt SendGrid signs each of their customers up for the aforementioned whitelists. They probably offer "assistance" with the process, which probably amounts to sending you a link to a nice HowTo document, and which probably yields them a small affiliate kickback when you actually follow through.