7 ms·

99% of domestic disturbances happen in private homes. Should they put cameras there, too?

by posix_compliant 7y ago

slig 7y ago
It's called "Telescreen" and will be soon available.
- onli 7y ago
  It's called laptop, smartphone and smart tv, is already available and we do know it's already watched and listened to.
  - jachee 7y ago
    Got any sources to cite for that watching and listening? Specifically Apple-related and North American examples?
    - onli 7y ago
      It's hard to take that question serious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)#Extent_of_the_program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)#E... explains why. Snowden leaked it years ago now. There is even a scene about that in the movie. And Apple-related? North American? That's not relevant at all.
      - jachee 7y ago
        It's relevant to what I want to see. You boldly claimed that the government is observing me in my home through my devices, and I want you to show your work. PRISM happens at the ISP level, and doesn't mention directly using iPhones, Macs, HomePods or tv as surveillance endpoints... So, where's your proof showing that they're surveilling US Citizens through those specific devices?
        onli 7y ago
        Have a look at https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/06/phone-camera-microphone-spying https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/06/phone-.... https://www.cultofmac.com/260213/nsa-spyware-allegedly-gives-backdoor-access-iphones/ https://www.cultofmac.com/260213/nsa-spyware-allegedly-gives..., linked in there, talks even specifically about iPhones.
    - bduerst 7y ago
      >Specifically Apple-related and North American examples? That's an oddly narrow goalpost. Apple shares user encryption keys with the Chinese government, for example, giving the Chinese government access to all iCloud pictures, messages, documents, videos, etc.
      - girvo 7y ago
        Do they? Shit, I thought that they’d set things up that sharing the key was extremely difficult if not impossible without access to the device? That’s disappointing if true, is there a good article on this?
        eitland 7y ago
        AFAIK this is only true for Chinese citizens or people who bought their phone in China or something but it is still scary.
        bduerst 7y ago
        Yep, Chinese users only. The odd part is that the internet blew up at Google for even proposing it and later cancelling it with project Dragonfly (also only for Chinese users), but Apple quietly went ahead and just did it without many people noticing.
      - jki275 7y ago
        That’s not accurate at all.
        bduerst 7y ago
        In early 2018, Apple forced their users to opt-in to migrating iCloud encryption keys and data to Chinese data centers: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insight/apple-moves-to-store-icloud-keys-in-china-raising-human-rights-fears-idUSKCN1G8060 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insigh... Chinese government nationalized the data centers six months later, gaining access to all the encryption keys and user iCloud data at rest: https://mashable.com/article/china-government-apple-icloud-data/#ahDzcDZPeiqd https://mashable.com/article/china-government-apple-icloud-d...
  - pcdoodle 7y ago
    ^^^ Source Please.
    - geggam 7y ago
      hey alexa !
    - throwiay789 7y ago
      did you just forget about snowden?
    - inanutshellus 7y ago
      How about the (now former) head of the FBI recommending we cover our front-facing cameras? https://www.engadget.com/2016/09/23/the-fbi-recommends-you-cover-your-laptops-webcam-good-reasons/ https://www.engadget.com/2016/09/23/the-fbi-recommends-you-c... and, mostly because it's mentioned in the engadget article: https://twitter.com/topherolson/status/745294977064828929/photo/1 https://twitter.com/topherolson/status/745294977064828929/ph...
- sixstringtheory 7y ago
  You mean Portal? https://portal.facebook.com https://portal.facebook.com
  - cameronbrown 7y ago
    Call me crazy but I'm thinking of buying one. The fact it has a camera cover and a microphone switch is enough to make me comfortable. I'm just waiting to find out if it's a software switch or hardware switch.
    - ohithereyou 7y ago
      Should be pretty easy to install your own hardware switch.
      - RankingMember 7y ago
        The way electronics are put together today (lots of glue, e.g. the Surface Book) I'm not so sure about how easy that'd be.
- lacker 7y ago
  because nobody seemed to get the reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescreen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescreen
- bilbo0s 7y ago
  Doesn't everyone want to catch guys like this [1]? If not, you're a bad guy and we can discount any argument you put forth am I right? Am I right? High five? Anyone? Anyone? Point being that the enemies privacy have been waging an extremely successful propaganda war against our position for longer than most privacy advocates have been alive. A campaign that is at once massive and specially calibrated to go unnoticed. (How many connect the 'Telescreen' to the example in [1] in their minds?) They have the power to ensure that hand picked, specific examples, calibrated to inflame, are used as flag bearers in the zeitgeist. They have a long game of very specific goals, coupled with an army of natural language, behavioral psychology, and media experts all dedicated to that singular purpose. They have decades of experience at manipulating populations at scale, and a track record replete with successes. Meanwhile, we sit on HN and social media talking to each other about how our side will be proven right in the end. You know, 'cuz "freedoms". We have to start addressing the legitimate points that government and law enforcement types are making, because not doing so cedes more and more ground in public behavior and public opinion to those enemies of privacy. The great irony here is that we ourselves have helped them manage to cast themselves in the public eye as the "champions of safety", due largely to the poorly chosen nature of our bedfellows. We need to start getting out in front of a lot of the legitimate arguments that law enforcement is making, and we need to push back against professionally subtle narratives in the national media that attempt to attach us to yet more unsavory bedfellows. ---- [1] - https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/02/us/woman-assaulted-boyfriend-doorbell-camera/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/02/us/woman-assaulted-boyfriend-...
mLuby 7y ago
Alexa should be enough…
- thelittleone 7y ago
  100%. There is no convenience that would ever convince me to have an always on listening device in my home. PRISM was proof that governments pressure tech companies to become sources. How to build a program to retain power: 1) Make new tech that is very convenient but has potential to become surveillance vector. -> e.g, Phone with voice recordings, fingerprint Face ID, location data, network of friends. Smart TV, smart watch, smart locks, Alexa, etc. 2) Support consumer adoption. 3) Keep public attention on the evils of foreign states and domestic terrorism. 4) Convert devices into active surveillance sources citing home security, public safety and the classic “what do you have to hide?”. 5) Do so as fast as possible without creating a revolt. 6) Have such pervasive surveillance that it becomes increasingly difficult to discuss, assemble and revolt. 7) Continue to introduce more controls, reduce freedoms, increase work week, taxes.
  - jefftk 7y ago
    > There is no convenience that would ever convince me to have an always on listening device in my home. Many smartphones have this, and will respond to "Ok Google" or "Hey Siri". Do you view this differently?
    - thelittleone 7y ago
      They're both rich information gathering sources with potential for abuse.
      - thothamon 7y ago
        But the specific question is, do you keep a phone in your home? If so, how is that better than having Alexa in your home?
        7y ago
windthrown 7y ago
And Facebook Portal cameras are hoping to do exactly that! https://portal.facebook.com https://portal.facebook.com
LinuxBender 7y ago
People are installing and paying for them already. IoT / Alexa / Ring / etc...
SquishyPanda23 7y ago
Ring is trying to do it https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/08/29/us/ring-cameras-police/index.html https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/08/29/us/ring-cameras-police/inde...
quickthrower2 7y ago
Nah. Too expensive, requires warrants etc. They'll use this instead: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21124963 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21124963.
9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
We need to put them to homes of politicians, judges, lobbyist, diplomats etc since they are the biggest threat to national security. Also their close ones that might be even greater target.
sjy 7y ago
There are laws authorising this, and they are frequently used to investigate serious crimes (like murder). They are not used for less serious crimes which do not warrant such a serious invasion of privacy.

99% of domestic disturbances happen in private homes. Should they put cameras there, too?

slig 7y ago

It's called "Telescreen" and will be soon available.

onli 7y ago
It's called laptop, smartphone and smart tv, is already available and we do know it's already watched and listened to.
- jachee 7y ago
  Got any sources to cite for that watching and listening? Specifically Apple-related and North American examples?
  - onli 7y ago
    It's hard to take that question serious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)#Extent_of_the_program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)#E... explains why. Snowden leaked it years ago now. There is even a scene about that in the movie. And Apple-related? North American? That's not relevant at all.
    - jachee 7y ago
      It's relevant to what I want to see. You boldly claimed that the government is observing me in my home through my devices, and I want you to show your work. PRISM happens at the ISP level, and doesn't mention directly using iPhones, Macs, HomePods or tv as surveillance endpoints... So, where's your proof showing that they're surveilling US Citizens through those specific devices?
      - onli 7y ago
        Have a look at https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/06/phone-camera-microphone-spying https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/06/phone-.... https://www.cultofmac.com/260213/nsa-spyware-allegedly-gives-backdoor-access-iphones/ https://www.cultofmac.com/260213/nsa-spyware-allegedly-gives..., linked in there, talks even specifically about iPhones.
  - bduerst 7y ago
    >Specifically Apple-related and North American examples? That's an oddly narrow goalpost. Apple shares user encryption keys with the Chinese government, for example, giving the Chinese government access to all iCloud pictures, messages, documents, videos, etc.
    - girvo 7y ago
      Do they? Shit, I thought that they’d set things up that sharing the key was extremely difficult if not impossible without access to the device? That’s disappointing if true, is there a good article on this?
      - eitland 7y ago
        AFAIK this is only true for Chinese citizens or people who bought their phone in China or something but it is still scary.
        bduerst 7y ago
        Yep, Chinese users only. The odd part is that the internet blew up at Google for even proposing it and later cancelling it with project Dragonfly (also only for Chinese users), but Apple quietly went ahead and just did it without many people noticing.
    - jki275 7y ago
      That’s not accurate at all.
      - bduerst 7y ago
        In early 2018, Apple forced their users to opt-in to migrating iCloud encryption keys and data to Chinese data centers: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insight/apple-moves-to-store-icloud-keys-in-china-raising-human-rights-fears-idUSKCN1G8060 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insigh... Chinese government nationalized the data centers six months later, gaining access to all the encryption keys and user iCloud data at rest: https://mashable.com/article/china-government-apple-icloud-data/#ahDzcDZPeiqd https://mashable.com/article/china-government-apple-icloud-d...
- pcdoodle 7y ago
  ^^^ Source Please.
  - geggam 7y ago
    hey alexa !
  - throwiay789 7y ago
    did you just forget about snowden?
  - inanutshellus 7y ago
    How about the (now former) head of the FBI recommending we cover our front-facing cameras? https://www.engadget.com/2016/09/23/the-fbi-recommends-you-cover-your-laptops-webcam-good-reasons/ https://www.engadget.com/2016/09/23/the-fbi-recommends-you-c... and, mostly because it's mentioned in the engadget article: https://twitter.com/topherolson/status/745294977064828929/photo/1 https://twitter.com/topherolson/status/745294977064828929/ph...
sixstringtheory 7y ago
You mean Portal? https://portal.facebook.com https://portal.facebook.com
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  Call me crazy but I'm thinking of buying one. The fact it has a camera cover and a microphone switch is enough to make me comfortable. I'm just waiting to find out if it's a software switch or hardware switch.
  - ohithereyou 7y ago
    Should be pretty easy to install your own hardware switch.
    - RankingMember 7y ago
      The way electronics are put together today (lots of glue, e.g. the Surface Book) I'm not so sure about how easy that'd be.
lacker 7y ago
because nobody seemed to get the reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescreen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescreen
bilbo0s 7y ago
Doesn't everyone want to catch guys like this [1]? If not, you're a bad guy and we can discount any argument you put forth am I right? Am I right? High five? Anyone? Anyone? Point being that the enemies privacy have been waging an extremely successful propaganda war against our position for longer than most privacy advocates have been alive. A campaign that is at once massive and specially calibrated to go unnoticed. (How many connect the 'Telescreen' to the example in [1] in their minds?) They have the power to ensure that hand picked, specific examples, calibrated to inflame, are used as flag bearers in the zeitgeist. They have a long game of very specific goals, coupled with an army of natural language, behavioral psychology, and media experts all dedicated to that singular purpose. They have decades of experience at manipulating populations at scale, and a track record replete with successes. Meanwhile, we sit on HN and social media talking to each other about how our side will be proven right in the end. You know, 'cuz "freedoms". We have to start addressing the legitimate points that government and law enforcement types are making, because not doing so cedes more and more ground in public behavior and public opinion to those enemies of privacy. The great irony here is that we ourselves have helped them manage to cast themselves in the public eye as the "champions of safety", due largely to the poorly chosen nature of our bedfellows. We need to start getting out in front of a lot of the legitimate arguments that law enforcement is making, and we need to push back against professionally subtle narratives in the national media that attempt to attach us to yet more unsavory bedfellows. ---- [1] - https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/02/us/woman-assaulted-boyfriend-doorbell-camera/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/02/us/woman-assaulted-boyfriend-...

mLuby 7y ago

Alexa should be enough…

thelittleone 7y ago
100%. There is no convenience that would ever convince me to have an always on listening device in my home. PRISM was proof that governments pressure tech companies to become sources. How to build a program to retain power: 1) Make new tech that is very convenient but has potential to become surveillance vector. -> e.g, Phone with voice recordings, fingerprint Face ID, location data, network of friends. Smart TV, smart watch, smart locks, Alexa, etc. 2) Support consumer adoption. 3) Keep public attention on the evils of foreign states and domestic terrorism. 4) Convert devices into active surveillance sources citing home security, public safety and the classic “what do you have to hide?”. 5) Do so as fast as possible without creating a revolt. 6) Have such pervasive surveillance that it becomes increasingly difficult to discuss, assemble and revolt. 7) Continue to introduce more controls, reduce freedoms, increase work week, taxes.
- jefftk 7y ago
  > There is no convenience that would ever convince me to have an always on listening device in my home. Many smartphones have this, and will respond to "Ok Google" or "Hey Siri". Do you view this differently?
  - thelittleone 7y ago
    They're both rich information gathering sources with potential for abuse.
    - thothamon 7y ago
      But the specific question is, do you keep a phone in your home? If so, how is that better than having Alexa in your home?
      - 7y ago

windthrown 7y ago

And Facebook Portal cameras are hoping to do exactly that! https://portal.facebook.com https://portal.facebook.com

LinuxBender 7y ago

People are installing and paying for them already. IoT / Alexa / Ring / etc...

SquishyPanda23 7y ago

Ring is trying to do it https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/08/29/us/ring-cameras-police/index.html https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/08/29/us/ring-cameras-police/inde...

quickthrower2 7y ago

Nah. Too expensive, requires warrants etc. They'll use this instead: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21124963 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21124963.

9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago

We need to put them to homes of politicians, judges, lobbyist, diplomats etc since they are the biggest threat to national security. Also their close ones that might be even greater target.

sjy 7y ago

There are laws authorising this, and they are frequently used to investigate serious crimes (like murder). They are not used for less serious crimes which do not warrant such a serious invasion of privacy.