4 ms·

Show HN: 8086/8088 assembler that runs over 8088 hardware with modern syntax

132 points by nanochess 7y ago

convivialdingo 7y ago
Very, very cool! I love the fact that you used an 8086 C compiler to make the whole toolchain work.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  Digital Mars C and C++ compilers still support 16 bit 8086 code generation and are free: https://www.digitalmars.com/download/freecompiler.html https://www.digitalmars.com/download/freecompiler.html Source code to the compiler/libraries is also free: https://github.com/DigitalMars/dmc https://github.com/DigitalMars/dmc https://github.com/DigitalMars/Compiler https://github.com/DigitalMars/Compiler
  - zokier 7y ago
    There is also GCC 6.2/6.3 for IA16 targets: https://blogs.mentor.com/embedded/blog/2017/04/01/announcing-sourcery-codebench-lite-for-ia16/ https://blogs.mentor.com/embedded/blog/2017/04/01/announcing... https://github.com/tkchia/build-ia16 https://github.com/tkchia/build-ia16 https://slideslive.com/38902413/gcc-ia16-backend https://slideslive.com/38902413/gcc-ia16-backend
    - pan69 7y ago
      > The toolchain can be used on either a GNU/Linux® or Microsoft® Windows® host. Bingo. I love programming for early DOS systems (86, 286, 386) but it's difficult to find a tool-chain that runs on Linux and is able to produce DOS compatible binaries. I think OpenWatcom might but I could not get it to work correctly. Definitely going to give this a try.
      - h2odragon 7y ago
        If you have not yet done so, may I suggest you investigate 'Dessqview/X'. Lovely stunts there.
dwrodri 7y ago
For those who are unfamiliar, Óscar Toledo G. (and his family) are all world-class hackers (and teachers) when it comes to low-level computing[1]. I learned about his family's work (as well as his own) on this website[2]. 1 = http://www.biyubi.com/tecnologia.html#resumen http://www.biyubi.com/tecnologia.html#resumen 2 = https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20570154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20570154
acqq 7y ago
"The compiler has many bugs and limitations, but it works for tinyasm purposes, and it's freely available. Supposedly it should support ANSI C, but I couldn't fit a standard ANSI C function definition" I've tried 25.07.1988 15:39 54,272 C88.EXE from c88v31_1.zip (disk 1 on http://www.desmet-c.com/ver_31h.shtml http://www.desmet-c.com/ver_31h.shtml ) with int f( int x, int y ) { return x * y; } int main( void ) { return f( 3, 4 ); } and it didn't complain? What's then that that didn't work? (Also, I used Borland's C compiler for these platforms, and there is an official version now available for free, but it's a little annoying to download).
- nanochess 7y ago
  Just try changing the first function definition in my source for tinyasm code to "struct label define_label(char name, int value)" and it will complain of error. Same with all my functions. I didn't had time for further dive looking for the error cause, so I just resorted to K&R.
  - acqq 7y ago
    I haven't tried to use the whole setup (with all headers etc) but if I put in my .c file the definition of struct and the ANSI C version of the definition of define_label, struct label *define_label(char* name, int value) { .. then C88 compiles without errors. On the page about the compiler the author of the page writes that he had to fix the standard libraries, but the compiler (C88) is definitely made to work with ANSI C "draft" which matches my experiment. And I surely understand it was "good enough" a solution for you to do what you did.
userbinator 7y ago
I'm a little surprised that it wasn't itself written in Asm (and thus has the possibility to be self-assembling), and the binary is almost 30KB. That may seem tiny today, but in the 8086/8088 era, it's huge; the first IBM PC in its minimum configuration had only 16K RAM. For a more "authentic" 8088 experience, you could use the assembler that came with MS-DOS 1.25, written by Tim Paterson: https://github.com/microsoft/MS-DOS/blob/master/v1.25/source/ASM.ASM https://github.com/microsoft/MS-DOS/blob/master/v1.25/source...
- acqq 7y ago
  > I'm a little surprised that it wasn't itself written in Asm I'm not, it's just not worth the effort. > in the 8086/8088 era, it's huge; the first IBM PC in its minimum configuration had only 16K RAM. It's really not needed today. > For a more "authentic" 8088 experience, you could use the assembler that came with MS-DOS 1.25, written by Tim Paterson The author here wanted just his own .asm sources to assemble natively, and not using nasm, and if I understand correctly they indeed depend on the features not present in the old assembler, he writes: "nasm doesn't run over 8086/8088 processors, and I couldn't find a compatible assembler!" It's not that he couldn't find any assembler, but that he couldn't find one that understands the features from nasm he used.
- tssva 7y ago
  The minimum config for the IBM PC might have been 16K but this was not a common configuration and was an extremely low amount of memory even for the 8086/8088 era of PCs.
- cameldrv 7y ago
  That's true but nobody bought a PC with 16K of RAM. The smallest I ever saw on a PC was 256k, and I think I might have encountered a near-clone with 128k.
  - Narishma 7y ago
    64K was a pretty common configuration in the first couple of years.
  - deleted 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
qx89l4 7y ago
Awesome project, congrats!

132 points by nanochess 7y ago

convivialdingo 7y ago

Very, very cool! I love the fact that you used an 8086 C compiler to make the whole toolchain work.

WalterBright 7y ago
Digital Mars C and C++ compilers still support 16 bit 8086 code generation and are free: https://www.digitalmars.com/download/freecompiler.html https://www.digitalmars.com/download/freecompiler.html Source code to the compiler/libraries is also free: https://github.com/DigitalMars/dmc https://github.com/DigitalMars/dmc https://github.com/DigitalMars/Compiler https://github.com/DigitalMars/Compiler
- zokier 7y ago
  There is also GCC 6.2/6.3 for IA16 targets: https://blogs.mentor.com/embedded/blog/2017/04/01/announcing-sourcery-codebench-lite-for-ia16/ https://blogs.mentor.com/embedded/blog/2017/04/01/announcing... https://github.com/tkchia/build-ia16 https://github.com/tkchia/build-ia16 https://slideslive.com/38902413/gcc-ia16-backend https://slideslive.com/38902413/gcc-ia16-backend
  - pan69 7y ago
    > The toolchain can be used on either a GNU/Linux® or Microsoft® Windows® host. Bingo. I love programming for early DOS systems (86, 286, 386) but it's difficult to find a tool-chain that runs on Linux and is able to produce DOS compatible binaries. I think OpenWatcom might but I could not get it to work correctly. Definitely going to give this a try.
    - h2odragon 7y ago
      If you have not yet done so, may I suggest you investigate 'Dessqview/X'. Lovely stunts there.

dwrodri 7y ago

For those who are unfamiliar, Óscar Toledo G. (and his family) are all world-class hackers (and teachers) when it comes to low-level computing[1]. I learned about his family's work (as well as his own) on this website[2]. 1 = http://www.biyubi.com/tecnologia.html#resumen http://www.biyubi.com/tecnologia.html#resumen 2 = https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20570154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20570154

acqq 7y ago

"The compiler has many bugs and limitations, but it works for tinyasm purposes, and it's freely available. Supposedly it should support ANSI C, but I couldn't fit a standard ANSI C function definition" I've tried 25.07.1988 15:39 54,272 C88.EXE from c88v31_1.zip (disk 1 on http://www.desmet-c.com/ver_31h.shtml http://www.desmet-c.com/ver_31h.shtml ) with int f( int x, int y ) { return x * y; } int main( void ) { return f( 3, 4 ); } and it didn't complain? What's then that that didn't work? (Also, I used Borland's C compiler for these platforms, and there is an official version now available for free, but it's a little annoying to download).

nanochess 7y ago
Just try changing the first function definition in my source for tinyasm code to "struct label define_label(char name, int value)" and it will complain of error. Same with all my functions. I didn't had time for further dive looking for the error cause, so I just resorted to K&R.
- acqq 7y ago
  I haven't tried to use the whole setup (with all headers etc) but if I put in my .c file the definition of struct and the ANSI C version of the definition of define_label, struct label *define_label(char* name, int value) { .. then C88 compiles without errors. On the page about the compiler the author of the page writes that he had to fix the standard libraries, but the compiler (C88) is definitely made to work with ANSI C "draft" which matches my experiment. And I surely understand it was "good enough" a solution for you to do what you did.

userbinator 7y ago

I'm a little surprised that it wasn't itself written in Asm (and thus has the possibility to be self-assembling), and the binary is almost 30KB. That may seem tiny today, but in the 8086/8088 era, it's huge; the first IBM PC in its minimum configuration had only 16K RAM. For a more "authentic" 8088 experience, you could use the assembler that came with MS-DOS 1.25, written by Tim Paterson: https://github.com/microsoft/MS-DOS/blob/master/v1.25/source/ASM.ASM https://github.com/microsoft/MS-DOS/blob/master/v1.25/source...

acqq 7y ago
> I'm a little surprised that it wasn't itself written in Asm I'm not, it's just not worth the effort. > in the 8086/8088 era, it's huge; the first IBM PC in its minimum configuration had only 16K RAM. It's really not needed today. > For a more "authentic" 8088 experience, you could use the assembler that came with MS-DOS 1.25, written by Tim Paterson The author here wanted just his own .asm sources to assemble natively, and not using nasm, and if I understand correctly they indeed depend on the features not present in the old assembler, he writes: "nasm doesn't run over 8086/8088 processors, and I couldn't find a compatible assembler!" It's not that he couldn't find any assembler, but that he couldn't find one that understands the features from nasm he used.
tssva 7y ago
The minimum config for the IBM PC might have been 16K but this was not a common configuration and was an extremely low amount of memory even for the 8086/8088 era of PCs.
cameldrv 7y ago
That's true but nobody bought a PC with 16K of RAM. The smallest I ever saw on a PC was 256k, and I think I might have encountered a near-clone with 128k.
- Narishma 7y ago
  64K was a pretty common configuration in the first couple of years.
- deleted 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

qx89l4 7y ago

Awesome project, congrats!