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An aside, but that sentiment "Those who trade liberty for security deserve neither" makes no sense. Every person in every civilization has made the trade off b

An aside, but that sentiment "Those who trade liberty for security deserve neither" makes no sense. Every person in every civilization has made the trade off between liberty and security to some degree. All but the staunchest anarchists are for some laws. Discussion over where the grey areas end are valid; and I'd argue more useful then assuming what ever is currently acceptable to any given person must be the optimal tradeoff.

neetdeth 7y ago
It doesn't make sense because it's so often butchered. Here's the real quote from Franklin: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." So, the liberty must be "essential" and the safety must be "temporary" - and the classification as such would be the essence of the argument. It's not so much a statement of principle as it is invective. And in context, it's actually about the liberties of a legislative assembly [1] rather than those of the individual, but that's a minor detail. 1. https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-ben-franklin-really-said https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-ben-franklin-really-said
Paul-ish 7y ago
Exactly this. Police in most countries can search your home if they have proper legal justification. That is extremely invasive, but it is allowed by many societies because they recognize that invasive searches with proper oversight can bring around greater liberty, if such searches catch individuals who are harming others. As I see it, the issue is not that these websites are being used by law enforcement, but that there is not formalized rules for doing so, nor is there transparency in how they are used by law enforcement. An example of a formal rule would be a warrant requirement.
- threwawasy1228 7y ago
  I would gladly move to any country that did not have this police ability in a heartbeat. There is no level of security that can justify to me anyway, even the most mundane aspects of our policing activity. The problem is that police don't actually make anyone safer, they simply create order for the state after something has occurred. I have never once called the police and had them actually do a single thing to help or solve the problem I was facing. Yet I can recount countless instances of them harassing me for nothing? Why is that? Maybe the fundamental notion of 'secure vs liberty' is flawed if we aren't actually provided with more security.
  - tbyehl 7y ago
    I've had a fugitive apprehension team surround my home... guns drawn, riot shield, the whole nine yards... looking for the guy who broke into my home, stole a firearm, sexually assaulted a person living there, and had continued threatening the victim via phone calls and texts for months. After they caught the guy, I found out that those guys showed up due to a DNA match against subsequent violent crimes, for which we were the only victims who knew his identity. Soon after the cops re-victimized us they put out a media alert that quickly resulted in someone turning him in. It was two more months before anyone told us they'd caught him. Two. Friggin. Months. Of continuing to worry that this criminal might make good on their threats of doing further harm. Seriously, I can't imagine many people reading this have lived for months under that level of stress and fear. Fuck the police.

neetdeth 7y ago

It doesn't make sense because it's so often butchered. Here's the real quote from Franklin: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." So, the liberty must be "essential" and the safety must be "temporary" - and the classification as such would be the essence of the argument. It's not so much a statement of principle as it is invective. And in context, it's actually about the liberties of a legislative assembly [1] rather than those of the individual, but that's a minor detail. 1. https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-ben-franklin-really-said https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-ben-franklin-really-said

Paul-ish 7y ago

Exactly this. Police in most countries can search your home if they have proper legal justification. That is extremely invasive, but it is allowed by many societies because they recognize that invasive searches with proper oversight can bring around greater liberty, if such searches catch individuals who are harming others. As I see it, the issue is not that these websites are being used by law enforcement, but that there is not formalized rules for doing so, nor is there transparency in how they are used by law enforcement. An example of a formal rule would be a warrant requirement.

threwawasy1228 7y ago
I would gladly move to any country that did not have this police ability in a heartbeat. There is no level of security that can justify to me anyway, even the most mundane aspects of our policing activity. The problem is that police don't actually make anyone safer, they simply create order for the state after something has occurred. I have never once called the police and had them actually do a single thing to help or solve the problem I was facing. Yet I can recount countless instances of them harassing me for nothing? Why is that? Maybe the fundamental notion of 'secure vs liberty' is flawed if we aren't actually provided with more security.
- tbyehl 7y ago
  I've had a fugitive apprehension team surround my home... guns drawn, riot shield, the whole nine yards... looking for the guy who broke into my home, stole a firearm, sexually assaulted a person living there, and had continued threatening the victim via phone calls and texts for months. After they caught the guy, I found out that those guys showed up due to a DNA match against subsequent violent crimes, for which we were the only victims who knew his identity. Soon after the cops re-victimized us they put out a media alert that quickly resulted in someone turning him in. It was two more months before anyone told us they'd caught him. Two. Friggin. Months. Of continuing to worry that this criminal might make good on their threats of doing further harm. Seriously, I can't imagine many people reading this have lived for months under that level of stress and fear. Fuck the police.