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While I have full respect for you to preach what you believe in, I'd like to urge the consideration for a detachment of promotion for democracy with regards to

While I have full respect for you to preach what you believe in, I'd like to urge the consideration for a detachment of promotion for democracy with regards to morality. Whichever mode of governance is simple a practice of value proposition that a particular regime sees as fit for their particular regional control/political reign. While democracy has its ostensible upsides, is such a protest at length really what's on the high moral ground? Many protestors are students who have a large amount of time, but have only seen less of this world, albeit believing in an idealistic view. The ones who suffer are the ones who reside in HK and are running out of methods to meet ends for their family that they have to feed. Consider the bus drivers for the tourism industry that are basically out of job and are powerless as figuring out what's the best course of action at this moment? Sure, maybe you can say a change is in dire need, via a certain perspective, it's absolutely respectable, though in the wake of being respectful for the whole population and the region, is such a protest which has lasted over 100 days truly the right course of action? Think for the HKers, is it truly better to pursue an unstable democracy in the merit of preaching a perceived sense of idealism, or is it perhaps better to focus on economic growth and enabling an entire population to a higher living standard? Nobody has the correct answer and it's definitely up to every single one of us individually to consider. Disclaimer: I am a Chinese so I may indeed have perceived bias, or just bias. Feel free to have a rational discussion with me and educate me on other perspectives, or even downvote me, all opinions are welcomed and respected.

kmonsen 7y ago
I think people of HK have tried other more peaceful approaches in the past and have received nothing in return from Beijing. Do you have any propositions of what citizens of HK, or China, can do to get more freedoms like freedom of speech or from random arrests on trumped up charges which is how the current situation started? I don't think anyone in HK want to be in this situation but for many they see it as a last choice they are willing to risk their life for.
- verttii 7y ago
  Countries who have successfully gained independence have often sacrificed a lot of blood for it. And built strong armed forces to back that independence up with. Whatever we may think is morally right, HK does not seem to be putting together that hard resistance, nor is it building up its own armed forces to declare and maintain independence with. China thinks HK is legally theirs and nothing we say or do will change their position over it. That's why I don't see these protests achieving anything.
  - kmonsen 7y ago
    I don't think we disagree? Note that there has historically been another way, to force the oppressor to be brutal enough that they, or the people sent to do it, will turn on the government. This worked in India against the British and almost worked in Tiananmen, rural army units had to be called in. I don't think it will work currently against China, but it is the only thing HK protestors are willing to do which I respect them for.
    - verttii 7y ago
      Yeah it's a gamble. It didn't work against the USSR in 1968 but it did work with the Baltics in 1991. China is as strong and determined as ever, I really don't see any way the protesters would get what they ultimately want.
- thewholeview 7y ago
  I think the concept of "freedom of speech" is highly subjective. If you go to China you would find very little consideration for a lack of freedom of speech aside from a few radicals whose mission is to cause turbulence to the existing regime. In Beijing, you can walk in many taxis and hear the driver blabber on to no end regarding the state of existence in China and state defamatory words regarding the Communist, the past, or the current presidency. In contrast, in America I often find myself in fear of coming forth and stating any merit that I thought of the potential Trump presidency, and the now presidency. In professional careers I'd fear a sense of being seen as a "demoral" person and I would fear for silent retaliation. Propaganda and ideology come hand in hand, I certainly do not disregard Chinese propaganda, but likewise I am no different to the narrative on China's own political structure that's becoming ever stronger in the West since the uprising of China. On the other hand, what is true "freedom of speech"? The narrative has been sounding more and more to me like a "freedom to uprise and overthrow the government". Due to my limited existence in the world, I can't claim merit or demerit to such ideal. But I am simply no fan of chaos caused due to the act of "trying to overthrow a government to seek ideal in the face of perceived oppression", especially when an entire region is almost shut down and hurt for many months.
  - j8014 7y ago
    > I think the concept of "freedom of speech" is highly subjective. What utter nonsense.
    - thewholeview 7y ago
      Thanks for the opinion, care to expand on it to help educate?
      - lammasass 7y ago
        No need - america free, china bad. Indeed in america if you are not white, or white but against the norm, you pretty must “censored” by society. Not to mention government monitoring and rapid standard of living decline because of corruption at the highest levels.
- p9264throw 7y ago
  Join the government and change it from within.
  - djdjjdjdj 7y ago
    If you understand LegCo and how the system is currently setup to benefit pro business and pro Communist government, you will realise changing it from within is a farce. The game has been rigged specifically to benefit China alone. The system is slowly being corrupted by pro Chinese force. Out of the last 3 CE, one was indicted for corruption. One took 8mil USD in consulting fee and then through China having to save his face, had his investigation dismissed by firing the investigator. The current one even admits she solely takes orders from Beijing. There is no good faith governance from the beginning.
petre 7y ago
In a democracy you don't get abducted by the governent for criticizing it, like it happened to Ai Weiwei and countless others in China. So I guess these idealistic students know better. I understand that Deng Xiaoping's doctrine was first economic growth and only then political change, but I highly doubt the CCP would ever allow itself to be challenged by organising truly free elections.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
hajile 7y ago
China has imprisoned over a million Muslims for crimes they "might commit in the future". Their concentration camps are so full, they are adding buildings to hold tens of thousands more every month. They persecute, torture, and imprison millions of Falun Gong practicers simply because of their religious beliefs (peaceful beliefs I might add). It's been estimated that 65,000 were killed for their organs between 2000 and 2008 (and many more since then). Some alleged eyewitnesses claim the people are cut apart with anesthetic to prevent possible damage to the tissue (the same thing is done in the US, but the patient is brain dead instead of being in extreme agony). Then there is the Tiananmen Massacre. People tried to speak out. Millions of people in cities all over the country. Even the local soldiers refused to do anything, so the government spent a while braining and hyper-indoctrinating troops from the far provinces to come in and start butchering the dissenters. Faced with such deaf ears and manifest brutality, protests hardly seem to be extreme measures. They'd obviously rather have a little debate with democracy than the so-called peace resulting from China's evil persecution and butchery. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-concentrationcamps/china-putting-minority-muslims-in-concentration-camps-us-says-idUSKCN1S925K https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-concentrationca... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong
mruts 7y ago
Democracy and freedom are as if not more important than economic opportunity. Free markets, free minds. China provides neither.

kmonsen 7y ago

I think people of HK have tried other more peaceful approaches in the past and have received nothing in return from Beijing. Do you have any propositions of what citizens of HK, or China, can do to get more freedoms like freedom of speech or from random arrests on trumped up charges which is how the current situation started? I don't think anyone in HK want to be in this situation but for many they see it as a last choice they are willing to risk their life for.

verttii 7y ago
Countries who have successfully gained independence have often sacrificed a lot of blood for it. And built strong armed forces to back that independence up with. Whatever we may think is morally right, HK does not seem to be putting together that hard resistance, nor is it building up its own armed forces to declare and maintain independence with. China thinks HK is legally theirs and nothing we say or do will change their position over it. That's why I don't see these protests achieving anything.
- kmonsen 7y ago
  I don't think we disagree? Note that there has historically been another way, to force the oppressor to be brutal enough that they, or the people sent to do it, will turn on the government. This worked in India against the British and almost worked in Tiananmen, rural army units had to be called in. I don't think it will work currently against China, but it is the only thing HK protestors are willing to do which I respect them for.
  - verttii 7y ago
    Yeah it's a gamble. It didn't work against the USSR in 1968 but it did work with the Baltics in 1991. China is as strong and determined as ever, I really don't see any way the protesters would get what they ultimately want.
thewholeview 7y ago
I think the concept of "freedom of speech" is highly subjective. If you go to China you would find very little consideration for a lack of freedom of speech aside from a few radicals whose mission is to cause turbulence to the existing regime. In Beijing, you can walk in many taxis and hear the driver blabber on to no end regarding the state of existence in China and state defamatory words regarding the Communist, the past, or the current presidency. In contrast, in America I often find myself in fear of coming forth and stating any merit that I thought of the potential Trump presidency, and the now presidency. In professional careers I'd fear a sense of being seen as a "demoral" person and I would fear for silent retaliation. Propaganda and ideology come hand in hand, I certainly do not disregard Chinese propaganda, but likewise I am no different to the narrative on China's own political structure that's becoming ever stronger in the West since the uprising of China. On the other hand, what is true "freedom of speech"? The narrative has been sounding more and more to me like a "freedom to uprise and overthrow the government". Due to my limited existence in the world, I can't claim merit or demerit to such ideal. But I am simply no fan of chaos caused due to the act of "trying to overthrow a government to seek ideal in the face of perceived oppression", especially when an entire region is almost shut down and hurt for many months.
- j8014 7y ago
  > I think the concept of "freedom of speech" is highly subjective. What utter nonsense.
  - thewholeview 7y ago
    Thanks for the opinion, care to expand on it to help educate?
    - lammasass 7y ago
      No need - america free, china bad. Indeed in america if you are not white, or white but against the norm, you pretty must “censored” by society. Not to mention government monitoring and rapid standard of living decline because of corruption at the highest levels.
p9264throw 7y ago
Join the government and change it from within.
- djdjjdjdj 7y ago
  If you understand LegCo and how the system is currently setup to benefit pro business and pro Communist government, you will realise changing it from within is a farce. The game has been rigged specifically to benefit China alone. The system is slowly being corrupted by pro Chinese force. Out of the last 3 CE, one was indicted for corruption. One took 8mil USD in consulting fee and then through China having to save his face, had his investigation dismissed by firing the investigator. The current one even admits she solely takes orders from Beijing. There is no good faith governance from the beginning.

petre 7y ago

In a democracy you don't get abducted by the governent for criticizing it, like it happened to Ai Weiwei and countless others in China. So I guess these idealistic students know better. I understand that Deng Xiaoping's doctrine was first economic growth and only then political change, but I highly doubt the CCP would ever allow itself to be challenged by organising truly free elections.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

hajile 7y ago

China has imprisoned over a million Muslims for crimes they "might commit in the future". Their concentration camps are so full, they are adding buildings to hold tens of thousands more every month. They persecute, torture, and imprison millions of Falun Gong practicers simply because of their religious beliefs (peaceful beliefs I might add). It's been estimated that 65,000 were killed for their organs between 2000 and 2008 (and many more since then). Some alleged eyewitnesses claim the people are cut apart with anesthetic to prevent possible damage to the tissue (the same thing is done in the US, but the patient is brain dead instead of being in extreme agony). Then there is the Tiananmen Massacre. People tried to speak out. Millions of people in cities all over the country. Even the local soldiers refused to do anything, so the government spent a while braining and hyper-indoctrinating troops from the far provinces to come in and start butchering the dissenters. Faced with such deaf ears and manifest brutality, protests hardly seem to be extreme measures. They'd obviously rather have a little debate with democracy than the so-called peace resulting from China's evil persecution and butchery. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-concentrationcamps/china-putting-minority-muslims-in-concentration-camps-us-says-idUSKCN1S925K https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-concentrationca... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong

mruts 7y ago

Democracy and freedom are as if not more important than economic opportunity. Free markets, free minds. China provides neither.