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During the American revolutionary war, France was a tremendous ally and instrumental to the colonies’ secession from Britain. The Marquis de Lafayette came over

During the American revolutionary war, France was a tremendous ally and instrumental to the colonies’ secession from Britain. The Marquis de Lafayette came over to fight for us, without pay, in his early 20s, forgoing his family’s desires and aristocratic opportunities. His family was so opposed to him going to the colonies, that local governments were involved in finding and preventing him from boarding ships. He eventually made his way over here, and fought for glory and because of his own sense of morality. Recently, I’ve been thinking about the HK scenario and wondering what I can do, but I can’t shake a nagging feeling that I could simply go over there and fight alongside the protestors. I often deflect with observations like “I don’t speak the language,” or “I don’t know what I would do to help,” and yet the thought keeps coming back. I wonder whether Lafayette would have done the same if he were alive in our time. I think the answer is he would, and that I am more of a coward than I want to believe.

20190820234322 7y ago
Your heart is in the right place but it's absurd to think about "going over there and fight" - we are not living in the 19th century. We should be lobbying our governments (plural intended) for prompt and decisive military action, preferably involving the use of nuclear weapon since China will be sure to use it if we don't use it first. Japan had hoped to quickly disable US Navy by Pearl Harbor, which it nearly accomplished. The same strategy is the one we should be pursuing, only with modern weaponry.
CharlesColeman 7y ago
> Recently, I’ve been thinking about the HK scenario and wondering what I can do, but I can’t shake a nagging feeling that I could simply go over there and fight alongside the protestors. I often deflect with observations like “I don’t speak the language,” or “I don’t know what I would do to help,” and yet the thought keeps coming back. I'd say do it, if you feel this way. This guy did it: https://idlewords.com/2019/08/a_walk_in_hong_kong.htm https://idlewords.com/2019/08/a_walk_in_hong_kong.htm Even if you stay on the sidelines, you could probably still help by being a witness, spreading their message, and maybe forging contacts to provide material and logistical support later. Though, be aware that pro-government propaganda is using photos of Westerners near the protests to fuel a fake-news narrative that they're being orchestrated by the CIA, but don't let stupid, uncontrollable stuff like that that stop you.
- xkcd-sucks 7y ago
  English is technically an official language of HK, most people that don't speak it are mainlanders.
- p9264throw 7y ago
  This makes me wonder, how does the CIA decide which governments to target? We know of their involvements in Central and South America, along with the Middle East. Wouldn’t this be a great opportunity for them to get involved?
  - CharlesColeman 7y ago
    Just to be clear: the HK protests are a legitimate, organic protest movement, and the allegations of CIA involvement are lies meant to discredit them. The protesters are actually getting their material support from older Hongkonger sympathizers, not foreigners: https://www.wsj.com/articles/you-dont-have-to-face-it-alone-hong-kong-protests-propelled-by-hidden-support-network-11568989967 https://www.wsj.com/articles/you-dont-have-to-face-it-alone-... > Wouldn’t this be a great opportunity for them to get involved? There's no opportunity for their involvement. How, exactly would they get involved anyway? Direct CIA involvement would be counterproductive and against any goal they may have, since the protests are organically strong on their own and the CIA could only weaken them.
  - blacksmith_tb 7y ago
    Presumably part of their calculation is "can we interfere without consequences" which I don't think we would say is the case with the PRC. That said, the US and PRC do seem to be doing a fair amount of cyberwarfare against one another, so maybe it isn't a foregone conclusion.
- lammasass 7y ago
  Why not fight for your own country? The western world has its own share of issues, ranging from a steep increase in far right politics to corruption and poor administration. Not that i don’t support helping hk, but your plan sounds a bit rich.
thewholeview 7y ago
While I have full respect for you to preach what you believe in, I'd like to urge the consideration for a detachment of promotion for democracy with regards to morality. Whichever mode of governance is simple a practice of value proposition that a particular regime sees as fit for their particular regional control/political reign. While democracy has its ostensible upsides, is such a protest at length really what's on the high moral ground? Many protestors are students who have a large amount of time, but have only seen less of this world, albeit believing in an idealistic view. The ones who suffer are the ones who reside in HK and are running out of methods to meet ends for their family that they have to feed. Consider the bus drivers for the tourism industry that are basically out of job and are powerless as figuring out what's the best course of action at this moment? Sure, maybe you can say a change is in dire need, via a certain perspective, it's absolutely respectable, though in the wake of being respectful for the whole population and the region, is such a protest which has lasted over 100 days truly the right course of action? Think for the HKers, is it truly better to pursue an unstable democracy in the merit of preaching a perceived sense of idealism, or is it perhaps better to focus on economic growth and enabling an entire population to a higher living standard? Nobody has the correct answer and it's definitely up to every single one of us individually to consider. Disclaimer: I am a Chinese so I may indeed have perceived bias, or just bias. Feel free to have a rational discussion with me and educate me on other perspectives, or even downvote me, all opinions are welcomed and respected.
- kmonsen 7y ago
  I think people of HK have tried other more peaceful approaches in the past and have received nothing in return from Beijing. Do you have any propositions of what citizens of HK, or China, can do to get more freedoms like freedom of speech or from random arrests on trumped up charges which is how the current situation started? I don't think anyone in HK want to be in this situation but for many they see it as a last choice they are willing to risk their life for.
  - verttii 7y ago
    Countries who have successfully gained independence have often sacrificed a lot of blood for it. And built strong armed forces to back that independence up with. Whatever we may think is morally right, HK does not seem to be putting together that hard resistance, nor is it building up its own armed forces to declare and maintain independence with. China thinks HK is legally theirs and nothing we say or do will change their position over it. That's why I don't see these protests achieving anything.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
The thing was that France and Britain actually engaged in a shooting war during the American Revolution. Without the direct military support of the French, Lafayette's efforts would likely have been in vain. It was the French Navy that bottled up Corwallis and Yorktown and forced the surrender that ended the war. To be honest, the reality is that Hong Kong is just not worth the costs of a US-Chinese military conflict. Given the Chinese view of history and how they view the partition of China among the European powers in the 19th century, this is likely a red-line issue for them that they are willing to go all out on. For good reason, no other country sees it that way.
knzhou 7y ago
You’d do more harm than good. Your “fighting for glory” is somebody else’s “insidious foreign intervention”. Let the people speak for themselves.
- gowld 7y ago
  What about Chinese Communist Party, which has no problem performing "insidious foreign intervention" at scale in Hong Kong? What about the people who say they want support? Do their needs matter? N ational govements are convenient fictions, not natural laws. We are all kin on this planet Earth. Imagine if the US civil war was never fought, because it was up to the slaves to "speak for themselves" (by which you mean fight by themselves) about their slavery. Imagine if the US never joined WW II, because it was up to the Holocause victims to "speak for themselves".
  - knzhou 7y ago
    See, the problem is that these slogans work for all sides. People want to group up and go out to "fight for glory" against the hated enemy. That natural instinct is what the commenter I was replying to was feeling. It's what we felt when we joined WWII, and it's also what the Axis citizens felt when they started WWII. It is what the Union soldiers felt and also what the Confederate soldiers felt. It is the same impulse that had cavemen bashing each other's skulls in during the stone age. If you view this conflict as only an opportunity to go out and "fight for glory" in a foreign country, to have some fun punching out foreigners, without understanding what precisely it is about, you're no better than a mercenary or a caveman with a club. A basic test to see if you have this understanding is if you know what the other side would say to justify itself. And no, "they hate freedom" is not, and never has been, the right answer.
    - PavlovsCat 7y ago
      If you see no more than "slogans" in that, that's on you. > People want to group up and go out to "fight for glory" against the hated enemy. No. Speak for yourself. You simply and repeatedly omit the part about the moral dimension, and fighting against injustice, a person or nation becoming the enemy just because of what they did to others. Would you want to be put into a concentration camp just for the sadistic fancy of others? And if you were, would you say nobody should care about it? Unless the answers are yes and yes, you aren't practicing what you're preaching. Yes, Hitler said he had to kill the Jews to save the world, and the world says Hitler was a mass murderer. You have to make up your own mind, you can't just shrug and say both sides think they're right, so it's neutral. I also wonder how much you actually know about the atmosphere under the Nazis, I would recommend a few books by Sebastian Haffner to start with. And do the people who fled the country to fight against the Nazis count, or the people who didn't dare to speak up, etc.?
afpx 7y ago
Interesting idea. I would def donate a lot of money to a non-profit fund that financed independent armies with pro-democratic aims. To me, democracy and individual rights have been essential to my livelihood and happiness. I want everyone to have what I have.
- justinclift 7y ago
  Isn't that directly "financing terrorism"?
  - afpx 7y ago
    I imagine you could call it that, if you're a moral relativist.
PavlovsCat 7y ago
This made me both very sad and very proud at the same time: https://www.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/dceatj/i_will_remember_this_speech_for_the_rest_of_my/ https://www.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/dceatj/i_...
hkmaxpro 7y ago
HKer here. Thank you for standing with HK! How to help HK protests from abroad: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cv0ws4/how_can_you_help_hong_kong_protests_from_abroad/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cv0ws4/how_can_yo... Other ways to help include boycotting products made in China.
xiphias2 7y ago
There's one thing you can always do: help the separation of money and state. I believe it's going to happen globally, but it will be painful at the same time. You can buy physical gold, silver or Bitcoin (I prefer the 3rd option, though I know that it's the most controversial).

20190820234322 7y ago

Your heart is in the right place but it's absurd to think about "going over there and fight" - we are not living in the 19th century. We should be lobbying our governments (plural intended) for prompt and decisive military action, preferably involving the use of nuclear weapon since China will be sure to use it if we don't use it first. Japan had hoped to quickly disable US Navy by Pearl Harbor, which it nearly accomplished. The same strategy is the one we should be pursuing, only with modern weaponry.

CharlesColeman 7y ago

> Recently, I’ve been thinking about the HK scenario and wondering what I can do, but I can’t shake a nagging feeling that I could simply go over there and fight alongside the protestors. I often deflect with observations like “I don’t speak the language,” or “I don’t know what I would do to help,” and yet the thought keeps coming back. I'd say do it, if you feel this way. This guy did it: https://idlewords.com/2019/08/a_walk_in_hong_kong.htm https://idlewords.com/2019/08/a_walk_in_hong_kong.htm Even if you stay on the sidelines, you could probably still help by being a witness, spreading their message, and maybe forging contacts to provide material and logistical support later. Though, be aware that pro-government propaganda is using photos of Westerners near the protests to fuel a fake-news narrative that they're being orchestrated by the CIA, but don't let stupid, uncontrollable stuff like that that stop you.

xkcd-sucks 7y ago
English is technically an official language of HK, most people that don't speak it are mainlanders.
p9264throw 7y ago
This makes me wonder, how does the CIA decide which governments to target? We know of their involvements in Central and South America, along with the Middle East. Wouldn’t this be a great opportunity for them to get involved?
- CharlesColeman 7y ago
  Just to be clear: the HK protests are a legitimate, organic protest movement, and the allegations of CIA involvement are lies meant to discredit them. The protesters are actually getting their material support from older Hongkonger sympathizers, not foreigners: https://www.wsj.com/articles/you-dont-have-to-face-it-alone-hong-kong-protests-propelled-by-hidden-support-network-11568989967 https://www.wsj.com/articles/you-dont-have-to-face-it-alone-... > Wouldn’t this be a great opportunity for them to get involved? There's no opportunity for their involvement. How, exactly would they get involved anyway? Direct CIA involvement would be counterproductive and against any goal they may have, since the protests are organically strong on their own and the CIA could only weaken them.
- blacksmith_tb 7y ago
  Presumably part of their calculation is "can we interfere without consequences" which I don't think we would say is the case with the PRC. That said, the US and PRC do seem to be doing a fair amount of cyberwarfare against one another, so maybe it isn't a foregone conclusion.
lammasass 7y ago
Why not fight for your own country? The western world has its own share of issues, ranging from a steep increase in far right politics to corruption and poor administration. Not that i don’t support helping hk, but your plan sounds a bit rich.

thewholeview 7y ago

While I have full respect for you to preach what you believe in, I'd like to urge the consideration for a detachment of promotion for democracy with regards to morality. Whichever mode of governance is simple a practice of value proposition that a particular regime sees as fit for their particular regional control/political reign. While democracy has its ostensible upsides, is such a protest at length really what's on the high moral ground? Many protestors are students who have a large amount of time, but have only seen less of this world, albeit believing in an idealistic view. The ones who suffer are the ones who reside in HK and are running out of methods to meet ends for their family that they have to feed. Consider the bus drivers for the tourism industry that are basically out of job and are powerless as figuring out what's the best course of action at this moment? Sure, maybe you can say a change is in dire need, via a certain perspective, it's absolutely respectable, though in the wake of being respectful for the whole population and the region, is such a protest which has lasted over 100 days truly the right course of action? Think for the HKers, is it truly better to pursue an unstable democracy in the merit of preaching a perceived sense of idealism, or is it perhaps better to focus on economic growth and enabling an entire population to a higher living standard? Nobody has the correct answer and it's definitely up to every single one of us individually to consider. Disclaimer: I am a Chinese so I may indeed have perceived bias, or just bias. Feel free to have a rational discussion with me and educate me on other perspectives, or even downvote me, all opinions are welcomed and respected.

kmonsen 7y ago
I think people of HK have tried other more peaceful approaches in the past and have received nothing in return from Beijing. Do you have any propositions of what citizens of HK, or China, can do to get more freedoms like freedom of speech or from random arrests on trumped up charges which is how the current situation started? I don't think anyone in HK want to be in this situation but for many they see it as a last choice they are willing to risk their life for.
- verttii 7y ago
  Countries who have successfully gained independence have often sacrificed a lot of blood for it. And built strong armed forces to back that independence up with. Whatever we may think is morally right, HK does not seem to be putting together that hard resistance, nor is it building up its own armed forces to declare and maintain independence with. China thinks HK is legally theirs and nothing we say or do will change their position over it. That's why I don't see these protests achieving anything.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago

The thing was that France and Britain actually engaged in a shooting war during the American Revolution. Without the direct military support of the French, Lafayette's efforts would likely have been in vain. It was the French Navy that bottled up Corwallis and Yorktown and forced the surrender that ended the war. To be honest, the reality is that Hong Kong is just not worth the costs of a US-Chinese military conflict. Given the Chinese view of history and how they view the partition of China among the European powers in the 19th century, this is likely a red-line issue for them that they are willing to go all out on. For good reason, no other country sees it that way.

knzhou 7y ago

You’d do more harm than good. Your “fighting for glory” is somebody else’s “insidious foreign intervention”. Let the people speak for themselves.

gowld 7y ago
What about Chinese Communist Party, which has no problem performing "insidious foreign intervention" at scale in Hong Kong? What about the people who say they want support? Do their needs matter? N ational govements are convenient fictions, not natural laws. We are all kin on this planet Earth. Imagine if the US civil war was never fought, because it was up to the slaves to "speak for themselves" (by which you mean fight by themselves) about their slavery. Imagine if the US never joined WW II, because it was up to the Holocause victims to "speak for themselves".
- knzhou 7y ago
  See, the problem is that these slogans work for all sides. People want to group up and go out to "fight for glory" against the hated enemy. That natural instinct is what the commenter I was replying to was feeling. It's what we felt when we joined WWII, and it's also what the Axis citizens felt when they started WWII. It is what the Union soldiers felt and also what the Confederate soldiers felt. It is the same impulse that had cavemen bashing each other's skulls in during the stone age. If you view this conflict as only an opportunity to go out and "fight for glory" in a foreign country, to have some fun punching out foreigners, without understanding what precisely it is about, you're no better than a mercenary or a caveman with a club. A basic test to see if you have this understanding is if you know what the other side would say to justify itself. And no, "they hate freedom" is not, and never has been, the right answer.
  - PavlovsCat 7y ago
    If you see no more than "slogans" in that, that's on you. > People want to group up and go out to "fight for glory" against the hated enemy. No. Speak for yourself. You simply and repeatedly omit the part about the moral dimension, and fighting against injustice, a person or nation becoming the enemy just because of what they did to others. Would you want to be put into a concentration camp just for the sadistic fancy of others? And if you were, would you say nobody should care about it? Unless the answers are yes and yes, you aren't practicing what you're preaching. Yes, Hitler said he had to kill the Jews to save the world, and the world says Hitler was a mass murderer. You have to make up your own mind, you can't just shrug and say both sides think they're right, so it's neutral. I also wonder how much you actually know about the atmosphere under the Nazis, I would recommend a few books by Sebastian Haffner to start with. And do the people who fled the country to fight against the Nazis count, or the people who didn't dare to speak up, etc.?

afpx 7y ago

Interesting idea. I would def donate a lot of money to a non-profit fund that financed independent armies with pro-democratic aims. To me, democracy and individual rights have been essential to my livelihood and happiness. I want everyone to have what I have.

justinclift 7y ago
Isn't that directly "financing terrorism"?
- afpx 7y ago
  I imagine you could call it that, if you're a moral relativist.

PavlovsCat 7y ago

This made me both very sad and very proud at the same time: https://www.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/dceatj/i_will_remember_this_speech_for_the_rest_of_my/ https://www.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/dceatj/i_...

hkmaxpro 7y ago

HKer here. Thank you for standing with HK! How to help HK protests from abroad: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cv0ws4/how_can_you_help_hong_kong_protests_from_abroad/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cv0ws4/how_can_yo... Other ways to help include boycotting products made in China.

xiphias2 7y ago

There's one thing you can always do: help the separation of money and state. I believe it's going to happen globally, but it will be painful at the same time. You can buy physical gold, silver or Bitcoin (I prefer the 3rd option, though I know that it's the most controversial).