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Most ordinary Russians in large cities still live in very cramped conditions with multiple families sharing a 3-bedroom apartment. I've visited such an apartmen

by dkural 7y ago

Most ordinary Russians in large cities still live in very cramped conditions with multiple families sharing a 3-bedroom apartment. I've visited such an apartment that my friend was living in, in the suburbs of Moscow. All the rooms became bedrooms due to lack of space in the evening, no such thing as a living room etc.

vkou 7y ago
My family had a four room apartment for six people (2 children). My mother's family had a three room apartment for four people (no children). We had some relatives living alone in one-room apartments, some that had three room apartments for a couple and children, great-grandparents who lived in a four-room home in the countryside. By the end of Khrushev's tenure, most people were no longer living in communal housing.
orthoxerox 7y ago
That's incorrect. Multiple generations often share a flat, related families might share a flat, but usually temporarily, unrelated families sharing a flat (communal flats) are rather rare now in big cities. Lack of dedicated bedrooms is a thing, though. Couches that fold out into beds are the norm in Russia.
notyourday 7y ago
You are thinking about "komunalka" with individual rooms having their own locks, a shared kitchen and a shared bathroom.
cpursley 7y ago
Yeah... I currently live in Russia. This is not even close to true. Maybe there's a few communal apartments still in St Petersburg. But most Russian families not only have their own private apartment, buy they outright own it (no mortgage) unlike Americans who are up to their eyeballs in debt.
- varjag 7y ago
  Several generations living in very cramped conditions in the same apartment is extremely common in Russia. Precisely because they can't afford to buy anything, mortgage or not.
  - cpursley 7y ago
    What percentage of people do you think live in communal apartments still and which cities? I'm probably biased living in city with lots of new construction (Anapa).
    - varjag 7y ago
      A 2012 KP article claimed every third Russian under 45 lived with parents. A Western migrant would unlikely be hanging out with the most desolate group.
      - cpursley 7y ago
        Living with parents is different than living in a communal apartment (where people live in rooms and share common areas with unrelated people).
  - antisthenes 7y ago
    It isn't anymore and hasn't for quite some time. Older generations sometimes live in with younger ones to help care for children and/or care for the elderly as well.
  - PeterisP 7y ago
    Several generations of one family in the same apartment and communal apartments are two very, very different things.
    - varjag 7y ago
      Yes and the GP post wasn't referring communal apartments.
- mantas 7y ago
  Most families bought apartments they were living in at the time for peanuts in early 90s
parliament32 7y ago
So basically identical to typical living conditions in San Francisco?
- PeterisP 7y ago
  The stereotypical SF living conditions involves a multiroom apartment with the common facilities shared by strangers and each bedroom has a working adult or possibly a couple. It's generally considered to be a "pre-family" housing model. The sterotypical Soviet "komunalka" involves a multiroom apartment with the common facilities shared by strangers and each bedroom has an extended family living there - i.e. a couple with kids and possibly including grandparents. That's a substantial difference; the exact same conditions feel very different depending on whether you're 25 and single; 35 and married with kids, or 10 and having to find a spot to do your homework while your parents' flatmates are having a "marriage crisis psychotherapy session" over vodka.
  - romwell 7y ago
    >10 and having to find a spot to do your homework while your parents' flatmates are having a "marriage crisis psychotherapy session" over vodka. Raises hand it me! it me! To be honest, it was fun at that age, many fond memories. We head great relationship with (most of the) flatmates, which included two very sweet old ladies: an X-Ray technician in one room, and a retiree who eventually moved out and rented her room to a couple with a kid in another. There was also an alcoholic with his wife, and his daughter's family living in a different room - we didn't really talk to either. Showering was a complex process, because not only one needed to figure out the time sharing, but also the water heater was a tricky beast. Known as 'kolonka', it didn't have a tank: the water was being heated in the pipes as they ran over gas being burned (very common back then). It was hard to get the temperature to be consistent; it had to be a two-person operation, with one person in the shower, and another manning the kolonka. The toilet, thankfully, was separate from the shower (as is common in Europe), which allowed for some degree of parallelization of the person hygiene streams. The kitchen was huge, and had at least four stoves. No (figurative) bottlenecks there - but that's where you'd bring the (literal) one. There was only one telephone line, with a rotary phone to match. Anyone would pick it up, and call out loudly to see if the callee is at home. Everyone fed the cat. I was lucky to have my own room: my parents' room was large enough that it could be divided into two rooms and a small corridor with an honest-to-God wall. The other couple with a kid also had a large room, but theirs was divided with a bookcase. It was a very old building, the ceilings were 4-5 meters tall, and if one went creative, one could easily build a loft - but no one did. We moved out when I was 11. The apartment, which housed five families, was consolidated into a regular apartment and sold off to someone rich - just as it was before the Revolution. Everyone got enough money for their rooms to buy an apartment further away from the city center. That was one aspect of living in the early 90-s that is not coming back soon: there were no rich neighborhoods. There were (newly) rich people, but they didn't build out enclaves yet; everyone was mixed together. The historical center was rather dilapidated, and the people who lived there came from all walks of life. I came back 15 years later, and the city felt like a Disney-fied copy of its former self: clean and painted up, but much less alive. We moved into a newly-built highrise, with a great view from the 9th floor, and a boiler that had a tank. I finally felt comfortable inviting friends over to our place. We remained friends with most of the flatmates, and visited each other in the years after. The communal get-togethers (i.e. people staying in the kitchen smoking and talking about everything ranging form world politics to personal things) were a missed aspect. The X-Ray technician worked for as long as I could remember, which, I think, how she maintained a clear mind going into a very old age. The other one didn't fare as well: she got scammed out of her apartment, IIRC by someone who got some sort of guardianship arrangement with her (help with basic necessities and whatever old people need) in exchange for inheriting the apartment. The arrangement, ad well as the scam, were common at the time. She was found in the streets, not being quite coherent, and somehow, the police reached my father, who had to take care of the situation. We found out she had an estranged daughter in Moscow, who didn't want to have to do anything with all of that. And so we were the closest people she had left. My father arranged for the old woman to be put in a mental health hospital, which was probably for the best. Whatever was left of the Soviet healthcare system at least meant that you didn't have to pay for it. In retrospect, another downside of getting our own place was that flatmates having a "marriage crisis psychotherapy session" were, most often, my parents. I could always go either of the old ladies' places in the communal apartment to weather out the storm. At the new highrise, I didn't know who our neighbors were. Ultimately, I don't know if it even made my parents much happier. I think, in the end, it was just not that important. The reason, I feel, is that the Soviet work ethic was, in its idealized state, very Protestant in spirit: one was to find their self-actualization in work. "From each according to their own abilities" and all that. Things like housing conditions and personal relationships were, ideally, secondary. "Why? Because we are the pilots, and the sky is our home. Airplanes come first, girls come second", went the popular song, which, by 90s, was utterly obsolete. Most of the people weren't quite sold on that, but quite a few were. Some never changed. And, as many articles here on HN discuss, tying one's happiness to work and success leads to a predictable crisis. But, having grown up, and having lived with and without roommates in the US, I do agree - that's a substantial difference. The thing that determined the dynamics of the communal flats the most was that people usually owned their part of the flat (post-USSR), and so were much more invested and tied to it. Even more so in the Soviet times: it was very hard to change your housing (not impossible, and there was a black exchange market, but something that required a lot of effort). So people in communal flats were stuck with each other over a span of decades. My family lived in a communal flat for 12 years, most of it with the same 4 families. So yes, very different from the way people live with roommates. That whole 'kommunalka' model obviated itself by the end of the 90-s.

by dkural 7y ago

vkou 7y ago

My family had a four room apartment for six people (2 children). My mother's family had a three room apartment for four people (no children). We had some relatives living alone in one-room apartments, some that had three room apartments for a couple and children, great-grandparents who lived in a four-room home in the countryside. By the end of Khrushev's tenure, most people were no longer living in communal housing.

orthoxerox 7y ago

That's incorrect. Multiple generations often share a flat, related families might share a flat, but usually temporarily, unrelated families sharing a flat (communal flats) are rather rare now in big cities. Lack of dedicated bedrooms is a thing, though. Couches that fold out into beds are the norm in Russia.

notyourday 7y ago

You are thinking about "komunalka" with individual rooms having their own locks, a shared kitchen and a shared bathroom.

cpursley 7y ago

Yeah... I currently live in Russia. This is not even close to true. Maybe there's a few communal apartments still in St Petersburg. But most Russian families not only have their own private apartment, buy they outright own it (no mortgage) unlike Americans who are up to their eyeballs in debt.

varjag 7y ago
Several generations living in very cramped conditions in the same apartment is extremely common in Russia. Precisely because they can't afford to buy anything, mortgage or not.
- cpursley 7y ago
  What percentage of people do you think live in communal apartments still and which cities? I'm probably biased living in city with lots of new construction (Anapa).
  - varjag 7y ago
    A 2012 KP article claimed every third Russian under 45 lived with parents. A Western migrant would unlikely be hanging out with the most desolate group.
    - cpursley 7y ago
      Living with parents is different than living in a communal apartment (where people live in rooms and share common areas with unrelated people).
- antisthenes 7y ago
  It isn't anymore and hasn't for quite some time. Older generations sometimes live in with younger ones to help care for children and/or care for the elderly as well.
- PeterisP 7y ago
  Several generations of one family in the same apartment and communal apartments are two very, very different things.
  - varjag 7y ago
    Yes and the GP post wasn't referring communal apartments.
mantas 7y ago
Most families bought apartments they were living in at the time for peanuts in early 90s

parliament32 7y ago

So basically identical to typical living conditions in San Francisco?

PeterisP 7y ago
The stereotypical SF living conditions involves a multiroom apartment with the common facilities shared by strangers and each bedroom has a working adult or possibly a couple. It's generally considered to be a "pre-family" housing model. The sterotypical Soviet "komunalka" involves a multiroom apartment with the common facilities shared by strangers and each bedroom has an extended family living there - i.e. a couple with kids and possibly including grandparents. That's a substantial difference; the exact same conditions feel very different depending on whether you're 25 and single; 35 and married with kids, or 10 and having to find a spot to do your homework while your parents' flatmates are having a "marriage crisis psychotherapy session" over vodka.
- romwell 7y ago
  >10 and having to find a spot to do your homework while your parents' flatmates are having a "marriage crisis psychotherapy session" over vodka. Raises hand it me! it me! To be honest, it was fun at that age, many fond memories. We head great relationship with (most of the) flatmates, which included two very sweet old ladies: an X-Ray technician in one room, and a retiree who eventually moved out and rented her room to a couple with a kid in another. There was also an alcoholic with his wife, and his daughter's family living in a different room - we didn't really talk to either. Showering was a complex process, because not only one needed to figure out the time sharing, but also the water heater was a tricky beast. Known as 'kolonka', it didn't have a tank: the water was being heated in the pipes as they ran over gas being burned (very common back then). It was hard to get the temperature to be consistent; it had to be a two-person operation, with one person in the shower, and another manning the kolonka. The toilet, thankfully, was separate from the shower (as is common in Europe), which allowed for some degree of parallelization of the person hygiene streams. The kitchen was huge, and had at least four stoves. No (figurative) bottlenecks there - but that's where you'd bring the (literal) one. There was only one telephone line, with a rotary phone to match. Anyone would pick it up, and call out loudly to see if the callee is at home. Everyone fed the cat. I was lucky to have my own room: my parents' room was large enough that it could be divided into two rooms and a small corridor with an honest-to-God wall. The other couple with a kid also had a large room, but theirs was divided with a bookcase. It was a very old building, the ceilings were 4-5 meters tall, and if one went creative, one could easily build a loft - but no one did. We moved out when I was 11. The apartment, which housed five families, was consolidated into a regular apartment and sold off to someone rich - just as it was before the Revolution. Everyone got enough money for their rooms to buy an apartment further away from the city center. That was one aspect of living in the early 90-s that is not coming back soon: there were no rich neighborhoods. There were (newly) rich people, but they didn't build out enclaves yet; everyone was mixed together. The historical center was rather dilapidated, and the people who lived there came from all walks of life. I came back 15 years later, and the city felt like a Disney-fied copy of its former self: clean and painted up, but much less alive. We moved into a newly-built highrise, with a great view from the 9th floor, and a boiler that had a tank. I finally felt comfortable inviting friends over to our place. We remained friends with most of the flatmates, and visited each other in the years after. The communal get-togethers (i.e. people staying in the kitchen smoking and talking about everything ranging form world politics to personal things) were a missed aspect. The X-Ray technician worked for as long as I could remember, which, I think, how she maintained a clear mind going into a very old age. The other one didn't fare as well: she got scammed out of her apartment, IIRC by someone who got some sort of guardianship arrangement with her (help with basic necessities and whatever old people need) in exchange for inheriting the apartment. The arrangement, ad well as the scam, were common at the time. She was found in the streets, not being quite coherent, and somehow, the police reached my father, who had to take care of the situation. We found out she had an estranged daughter in Moscow, who didn't want to have to do anything with all of that. And so we were the closest people she had left. My father arranged for the old woman to be put in a mental health hospital, which was probably for the best. Whatever was left of the Soviet healthcare system at least meant that you didn't have to pay for it. In retrospect, another downside of getting our own place was that flatmates having a "marriage crisis psychotherapy session" were, most often, my parents. I could always go either of the old ladies' places in the communal apartment to weather out the storm. At the new highrise, I didn't know who our neighbors were. Ultimately, I don't know if it even made my parents much happier. I think, in the end, it was just not that important. The reason, I feel, is that the Soviet work ethic was, in its idealized state, very Protestant in spirit: one was to find their self-actualization in work. "From each according to their own abilities" and all that. Things like housing conditions and personal relationships were, ideally, secondary. "Why? Because we are the pilots, and the sky is our home. Airplanes come first, girls come second", went the popular song, which, by 90s, was utterly obsolete. Most of the people weren't quite sold on that, but quite a few were. Some never changed. And, as many articles here on HN discuss, tying one's happiness to work and success leads to a predictable crisis. But, having grown up, and having lived with and without roommates in the US, I do agree - that's a substantial difference. The thing that determined the dynamics of the communal flats the most was that people usually owned their part of the flat (post-USSR), and so were much more invested and tied to it. Even more so in the Soviet times: it was very hard to change your housing (not impossible, and there was a black exchange market, but something that required a lot of effort). So people in communal flats were stuck with each other over a span of decades. My family lived in a communal flat for 12 years, most of it with the same 4 families. So yes, very different from the way people live with roommates. That whole 'kommunalka' model obviated itself by the end of the 90-s.