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> Not only do they have to die, they also have to live. If everyone went vegan, those animals would never have existed. In the same way, you could justify birt
by seanwilson 7y ago
> Not only do they have to die, they also have to live. If everyone went vegan, those animals would never have existed.
In the same way, you could justify birthing a human into slavery, birthing a dog for dog fighting, birthing a bull for bullfighting etc. - it's not a good reason.
There's animals related to farm bred cows, pigs and chickens in the wild as well. You could use the land that's used for animal agriculture to let wild animals thrive, instead of birthing animals into a miserable life.
> If the standards of living for the average farm animal were really good, would that be worse than them having never existed?
I don't think there's enough land for this to ever be feasible and feed everyone that wants to eat meat.
You should also consider that farm animals are killed within around 20% or less into their natural lifespan so it's not like you'd be giving them much time to experience a great life. Also, for economical reasons, you'd probably still have to kill e.g. males from egg laying hens within a day or two, and male dairy calves within weeks.
- geggam 7y agoI would argue that you haven't ever really spent much time in nature. Example : Wolves and coyotes thrive on killing babies, nature is much more harsh than any farm I have seen.
- seanwilson 7y agoWolves and coyotes don't have supermarkets. We have a choice to not act like wild animals. Animals also murder their own kind, can be cannibalistic and worse. Is it okay to do those things too because they happen in nature? We shouldn't (and don't) based our morals and behaviours on wild animals.
- geggam 7y agoWhere do you think supermarkets get food ? This is the disconnect so many people have.
- seanwilson 7y agoThe point was we can live long and healthy lives by going to the supermarket and buying non-meat food. We can survive now without making animals needlessly suffer (including paying others to kill animals on our behalf). Some carnivorous wild animals have no choice but to hunt and eat prey alive to survive. We have a choice.
- geggam 7y agoI choose to eat animals. You choose to eat plants. Question is why do you want plants to taste like animals and it was answered. Some folks don’t like killing. I don’t mind taking an animals life to eat. Therein lies the difference
- seanwilson 7y ago> I don’t mind taking an animals life to eat. Therein lies the difference Can I ask if you'd be okay with killing all the animals you eat yourself? If you wouldn't be prepared to do the killing yourself, why?
- geggam 7y agoYes. I grew up on a farm. I used to hunt. I can raise slaughter clean and process animals. I have always been close to my food source and I think that is why I find this disconnect people have interesting. My wife can’t eat out of the garden because she sees the shit on the plants and the bugs that crawl all over them. She doesn’t have a problem with store veggies though :)
- socksy 7y agoSo because nature does it, we should do it too?
- geggam 7y agoYou are a part of nature.
- gridlockd 7y ago> In the same way, you could justify birthing a human into slavery, birthing a dog for dog fighting, birthing a bull for bullfighting etc. - it's not a good reason. You misread. The premise is that they will live a good life, whatever that means for the species in question. > There's animals related to farm bred cows, pigs and chickens in the wild as well. You could use the land that's used for animal agriculture to let wild animals thrive, instead of birthing animals into a miserable life. Life in nature is rather miserable. I'm talking about better life than nature would afford. Would it be better for those lives to have existed, or not? It's a philosophical question, there's no "correct" answer.