7 ms·

I have so much respect for those protesters.

loceng 7y ago
Agreed. They've been educated about history and understand what's at stake. I wish the rest of democratic societies would already be taking a strong stand with them. The tyrannical powers in control of China at the moment, much like Trump's rise, will be countered at the HK situations wakens us to the behaviour of China's tyrants until now relative limited light being shone on their bad behaviours. Edit: Especially curious if downvotes in heavily political, democracy vs. tyrant topics are legitimate or suppression; another reason downvote mechanism is terrible: if you have something legitimate to counter, then spend any effort writing something qualitative.
- briandear 7y ago
  > The tyrannical powers in control of China at the moment At the moment? Do you mean the past 70 years?
  - loceng 7y ago
    Of course, and still at this moment.
- malandrew 7y ago
  It’s probably mentioning Trump that gets you downvoted. He definitely leans authoritarian on many issues, but so do most of the democrats he’s running against in 2020. Where these two flavors of authoritarian differ is the issues they are authoritarian on. Whether or not someone downvotes you probably has most to do with which issues they are most concerned about with respect to the authoritarian we get. If someone is more worried about Democrat authoritarians than Trump-flavored authoritarianism then it’s likely they’d downvote you. Having lived in China for several years, my opinion is that Warren and Sanders are probably the two politicians pushing big government ideas that if unchecked are most likely to devolve into something resembling Chinese style authoritarianism. Both are the "I know what's best for you" central planner fallacy. Unfortunately, that that think they know what's best for you are never the ones that pay the price for being wrong. China is a place where big government is never wrong and the population is disarmed just in case they disagree with the government. Anyways, that’s my theory on the downvoting you’re getting. That said, I wouldn’t worry too much about downvotes on HN these days. It’s become far more ideological on here in the past few years, that it's highly likely that you’re going to encounter downvotes out of disagreement. With tech being mainstream and a major social justice battleground, the HN on yesteryear is long gone. We've had several years of eternal september by now.
  - kmonsen 7y ago
    This is just not true. Authoritarian governments are kept in check by free speech and openness of government. Sanders and Warren are clearly if favor of citizens being in charge of the government.
    - malandrew 7y ago
      "citizens" is a term vague to the point of meaninglessness. Not sure what you're definition you're using, but pretty much all authoritarian communist governments in the 20th and 21st century had citizens in charge of the government. That didn't do a whole lot of good for the citizens that were not in charge. The DPRK is pretty much the only one where the responsibility of who was in charge was passed on from parent to child.
      - kmonsen 7y ago
        I mean all citizen, not some special citizens or a few citizens. Of course if the power is in the hands of the few it doesn't matter at all which label you put on them.
        malandrew 7y ago
        Basically every form of government that has ever existed at scale has devolved into an oligarchy. I know of none where "all citizen [sic], not some special citizens or a few citizens" are in power. A Sanders or Warren government would just have power in the hands of either Sanders or Warren and their respective cabinet and the other three branches of government. It would still be "some special citizens or a few citizens". I haven't seen a single proposal from them that would have then operating any differently from any previous executive administration this country has seen since 1776. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy
        andrekandre 7y ago
        > A Sanders or Warren government would just have power in the hands of either Sanders or Warren and their respective cabinet and the other three branches of government. It would still be "some special citizens or a few citizens" then what is the alternative that you propose?
- scohesc 7y ago
  Please don't compare the Chinese government's actions to the Trump administration. They're not even remotely close.
  - loceng 7y ago
    They are absolutely leading toward the same path, outcome. If you're up for reading I've heard the book Maps of Meaning by Jordan Peterson - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maps_of_Meaning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maps_of_Meaning - will be a deep dive or good introduction to referencing patterns and tyrannical governments through history.
    - dkkdkdkdk 7y ago
      You are definitely being unfairly downvoted. The China shills are in full force.
  - 20190820234322 7y ago
    Trump, for all his flaws, is fundamentally a good human being, or at least is entitled to being assumed to be such simply because he grew up in a democratic country. The same cannot be said of the Chinese.
    - Pfhreak 7y ago
      I'm sorry, did you just seriously say, "The Chinese are not fundamentally good human beings"? Because I'm trying to read your comment as anything other than unbelievably racist and coming up empty.
      - 20190820234322 7y ago
        Are you saying that all human beings are "fundamentally good human beings"? Even Hitler?
      - dang 7y ago
        Please don't feed the trolls. This is in the HN guidelines, under other wording: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
- 20190820234322 7y ago
  HN is flooded with Chinese shills these days and I'm constantly seeing pro-China comments. Unfortunately it's such a large country so unless dang (who has been especially disappoint in this regard) is willing to put a stop to this state of affairs the downvote numbers will always be rigged.
- salawat 7y ago
  Time to burn some karma again. Google "gent forum spies" sans quotes, look for cryptome(dot)org. Should be an article from july, 2012ish. Give it a read. It's a bit of an eye opener for the uninitiated.
  - googamooga 7y ago
    Many thanks @salawat, interesting reading indeed.
  - echelon 7y ago
    Wow, this is fascinating. Some of the topics: > Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a internet forum.. > Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation I knew this was done, but this is essentially the guide book. Jeez. I'm curious though - why didn't you directly link to it?
    - salawat 7y ago
      Because the last few threads I did I'd be near instantly downvote bombed and flagged. Particularly in Hong Kong related threads. Spread it far and wide. Never let anyone stop the Signal.
      - squarefoot 7y ago
        "Because the last few threads I did I'd be near instantly downvote bombed and flagged." Upvoted, just in case... Anyway, that article comes #1 on DDG by searching that string both with or without quotes.

Agreed. They've been educated about history and understand what's at stake. I wish the rest of democratic societies would already be taking a strong stand with them. The tyrannical powers in control of China at the moment, much like Trump's rise, will be countered at the HK situations wakens us to the behaviour of China's tyrants until now relative limited light being shone on their bad behaviours. Edit: Especially curious if downvotes in heavily political, democracy vs. tyrant topics are legitimate or suppression; another reason downvote mechanism is terrible: if you have something legitimate to counter, then spend any effort writing something qualitative.

briandear 7y ago
> The tyrannical powers in control of China at the moment At the moment? Do you mean the past 70 years?
- loceng 7y ago
  Of course, and still at this moment.
malandrew 7y ago
It’s probably mentioning Trump that gets you downvoted. He definitely leans authoritarian on many issues, but so do most of the democrats he’s running against in 2020. Where these two flavors of authoritarian differ is the issues they are authoritarian on. Whether or not someone downvotes you probably has most to do with which issues they are most concerned about with respect to the authoritarian we get. If someone is more worried about Democrat authoritarians than Trump-flavored authoritarianism then it’s likely they’d downvote you. Having lived in China for several years, my opinion is that Warren and Sanders are probably the two politicians pushing big government ideas that if unchecked are most likely to devolve into something resembling Chinese style authoritarianism. Both are the "I know what's best for you" central planner fallacy. Unfortunately, that that think they know what's best for you are never the ones that pay the price for being wrong. China is a place where big government is never wrong and the population is disarmed just in case they disagree with the government. Anyways, that’s my theory on the downvoting you’re getting. That said, I wouldn’t worry too much about downvotes on HN these days. It’s become far more ideological on here in the past few years, that it's highly likely that you’re going to encounter downvotes out of disagreement. With tech being mainstream and a major social justice battleground, the HN on yesteryear is long gone. We've had several years of eternal september by now.
- kmonsen 7y ago
  This is just not true. Authoritarian governments are kept in check by free speech and openness of government. Sanders and Warren are clearly if favor of citizens being in charge of the government.
  - malandrew 7y ago
    "citizens" is a term vague to the point of meaninglessness. Not sure what you're definition you're using, but pretty much all authoritarian communist governments in the 20th and 21st century had citizens in charge of the government. That didn't do a whole lot of good for the citizens that were not in charge. The DPRK is pretty much the only one where the responsibility of who was in charge was passed on from parent to child.
    - kmonsen 7y ago
      I mean all citizen, not some special citizens or a few citizens. Of course if the power is in the hands of the few it doesn't matter at all which label you put on them.
      - malandrew 7y ago
        Basically every form of government that has ever existed at scale has devolved into an oligarchy. I know of none where "all citizen [sic], not some special citizens or a few citizens" are in power. A Sanders or Warren government would just have power in the hands of either Sanders or Warren and their respective cabinet and the other three branches of government. It would still be "some special citizens or a few citizens". I haven't seen a single proposal from them that would have then operating any differently from any previous executive administration this country has seen since 1776. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy
        andrekandre 7y ago
        > A Sanders or Warren government would just have power in the hands of either Sanders or Warren and their respective cabinet and the other three branches of government. It would still be "some special citizens or a few citizens" then what is the alternative that you propose?
scohesc 7y ago
Please don't compare the Chinese government's actions to the Trump administration. They're not even remotely close.
- loceng 7y ago
  They are absolutely leading toward the same path, outcome. If you're up for reading I've heard the book Maps of Meaning by Jordan Peterson - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maps_of_Meaning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maps_of_Meaning - will be a deep dive or good introduction to referencing patterns and tyrannical governments through history.
  - dkkdkdkdk 7y ago
    You are definitely being unfairly downvoted. The China shills are in full force.
- 20190820234322 7y ago
  Trump, for all his flaws, is fundamentally a good human being, or at least is entitled to being assumed to be such simply because he grew up in a democratic country. The same cannot be said of the Chinese.
  - Pfhreak 7y ago
    I'm sorry, did you just seriously say, "The Chinese are not fundamentally good human beings"? Because I'm trying to read your comment as anything other than unbelievably racist and coming up empty.
    - 20190820234322 7y ago
      Are you saying that all human beings are "fundamentally good human beings"? Even Hitler?
    - dang 7y ago
      Please don't feed the trolls. This is in the HN guidelines, under other wording: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
20190820234322 7y ago
HN is flooded with Chinese shills these days and I'm constantly seeing pro-China comments. Unfortunately it's such a large country so unless dang (who has been especially disappoint in this regard) is willing to put a stop to this state of affairs the downvote numbers will always be rigged.
salawat 7y ago
Time to burn some karma again. Google "gent forum spies" sans quotes, look for cryptome(dot)org. Should be an article from july, 2012ish. Give it a read. It's a bit of an eye opener for the uninitiated.
- googamooga 7y ago
  Many thanks @salawat, interesting reading indeed.
- echelon 7y ago
  Wow, this is fascinating. Some of the topics: > Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a internet forum.. > Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation I knew this was done, but this is essentially the guide book. Jeez. I'm curious though - why didn't you directly link to it?
  - salawat 7y ago
    Because the last few threads I did I'd be near instantly downvote bombed and flagged. Particularly in Hong Kong related threads. Spread it far and wide. Never let anyone stop the Signal.
    - squarefoot 7y ago
      "Because the last few threads I did I'd be near instantly downvote bombed and flagged." Upvoted, just in case... Anyway, that article comes #1 on DDG by searching that string both with or without quotes.