4 ms·

Brexit is not a threat to democracy in the absolute sense. It is a threat to democracy because, after 3 years, we now know that it is a power wrestling within

by gutnor 7y ago

Brexit is not a threat to democracy in the absolute sense. It is a threat to democracy because, after 3 years, we now know that it is a power wrestling within the ruling class, for the exclusive benefit of the ruling class. All the good reasons you may have had before and right after the referendum are irrelevant now. What Brexit is and what it is used to do is clear for all to see, and it is not a democratic excercise. To take a less loaded example: that's like sending money to a charity "Food for Africa Children" and realising 3 years after, your money is instead funnelled into buying a super yatcht for some billionaire somewhere. Feeding Africa Children is good, giving money to charity is good but you can no longer make the argument that "Food for Africa Children" is good, and you can no longer claim any moral high ground if you continue to support that organisation.

easytiger 7y ago
> ruling class, for the exclusive benefit of the ruling class. You can't really expect to be taken seriously with nonsense like this?
mattmanser 7y ago
You are probabaly a remainer, as am I, but you are using a remainer's justification for a re-run. And pretending leavers believe this. They generally don't. No significant proportion of people have changed their mind. The leavers still want to leave, everyone's sick of parliament dragging this out for years. Many remainer's are still hoping for some sort of magic unicorn waving it's horn and we'll stay in. The time to do that was 2 years ago, not now, just get it over with already.
- benj111 7y ago
  To be fair you don't need anyone to change their mind for the outcome to change, Leavers skew older so mortality would swing the result in remains favour. Id agree that each side is entrenched, I still think you need to have that vote, or come up with an option somewhere between the 2 camps, not swing to an even further extreme as we seem to be doing at the moment. No deal wasn't a thing we were discussing in the run up to the referendum, it wasn't even a thing we were really discussing this time last year.
- gutnor 7y ago
  Re-run or no re-run does not change much to the threat I mention. The problem is the post-truth targetted propaganda campaign has been de-facto legalised. The current government behaviour, especially in a country without written constitution is similarly going to set a very bad precedent. A lot of the process works because the opposition and government are expected to behave in gentleman-ish fashion, but this government is resetting the rule to "anything is ok to stay in power". The government is abusing its 50% of the population into distrusting Parliament and the Judiciary at every opportunity. They do the same with the civil service. You can't expect Labour or other to "stay civil" when there is a party winning with those strategies. Maybe not at the next GE but surely the one after that, all that you see today is going to be the new normal. And that will affect the UK only major asset, its softpower. One that is gone, the future government will have to double down on the propaganda to distract the masses. If your voting power is limited to vote for "mystery candidate" with manifesto in no way grounded in reality, you have a democracy in name only.

by gutnor 7y ago

easytiger 7y ago

> ruling class, for the exclusive benefit of the ruling class. You can't really expect to be taken seriously with nonsense like this?

mattmanser 7y ago

You are probabaly a remainer, as am I, but you are using a remainer's justification for a re-run. And pretending leavers believe this. They generally don't. No significant proportion of people have changed their mind. The leavers still want to leave, everyone's sick of parliament dragging this out for years. Many remainer's are still hoping for some sort of magic unicorn waving it's horn and we'll stay in. The time to do that was 2 years ago, not now, just get it over with already.

benj111 7y ago
To be fair you don't need anyone to change their mind for the outcome to change, Leavers skew older so mortality would swing the result in remains favour. Id agree that each side is entrenched, I still think you need to have that vote, or come up with an option somewhere between the 2 camps, not swing to an even further extreme as we seem to be doing at the moment. No deal wasn't a thing we were discussing in the run up to the referendum, it wasn't even a thing we were really discussing this time last year.
gutnor 7y ago
Re-run or no re-run does not change much to the threat I mention. The problem is the post-truth targetted propaganda campaign has been de-facto legalised. The current government behaviour, especially in a country without written constitution is similarly going to set a very bad precedent. A lot of the process works because the opposition and government are expected to behave in gentleman-ish fashion, but this government is resetting the rule to "anything is ok to stay in power". The government is abusing its 50% of the population into distrusting Parliament and the Judiciary at every opportunity. They do the same with the civil service. You can't expect Labour or other to "stay civil" when there is a party winning with those strategies. Maybe not at the next GE but surely the one after that, all that you see today is going to be the new normal. And that will affect the UK only major asset, its softpower. One that is gone, the future government will have to double down on the propaganda to distract the masses. If your voting power is limited to vote for "mystery candidate" with manifesto in no way grounded in reality, you have a democracy in name only.