5 ms·

That's what I do now when people ask me if they should have kids. I always say the same thing: All the benefits are intangible and all the drawbacks are tangibl

That's what I do now when people ask me if they should have kids. I always say the same thing: All the benefits are intangible and all the drawbacks are tangible.

hvidgaard 7y ago
All the unconditional love you experience and the pure joy and pride of experiencing the little person grow up is simply not something I can explain. I can explain that you will spend a lot of money and time on them, worry a lot and you will lose sleep over all the worry you have. Is it worth it? I'm obviously biased, so my answer is to be taken with a grain of salt.
- username90 7y ago
  There is no such thing as unconditional love, even from your own children. For example if you have high trait neuroticism (vulnerable to negative emotions) then likely your kids will as well, so your family could very easily end up with everyone being miserable since nobody has the tools to properly deescalate setbacks, instead they'd just make it worse.
  - hvidgaard 7y ago
    > There is no such thing as unconditional love. It never ceases to amaze me that you have to be so pedantic when saying something like this. I don't want to write a lengthy disclaimer explaining priors and terms - the entire point would drown in unnecessary prose. It obviously applies to normal families with normal parents with normal children. The love and affection from normal children to their normal parents are for all intents and purposes unconditional.
    - username90 7y ago
      > It obviously applies to normal families with normal parents with normal children. You are missing a thing: People who don't want kids are usually not normal people.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - blaser-waffle 7y ago
        Strongly disagree: it's perfectly normal and rational to not want kids, for the reasons listed above. You don't need to be neurotic, selfish, or lazy to not want kids. Doesn't mean the thought won't cross my mind on the regular, just not something to act on.
        username90 7y ago
        I said most, not all. There is something strange or off about most people I know who don't want children, including myself. I'd almost say that the fact that you can stand against the social pressure to get a kid is evidence enough that you are strange in some way, if you can break that norm then you have probably broken several other norms as well.
  - ChefboyOG 7y ago
    This comment is incredibly on brand for HN.
  - saiya-jin 7y ago
    Now that's a sour argument with pointing to an tiny edge case. There are tons of edge cases - kids born with various diseases, be it physical or psychological, danger to mother etc. And anyway we all die, and so will all the matter in universe at one point... I've given tons of unconditional love as a child, I've seen it being received by many peers with kids, and hopefully will experience some of it with my own. Even if not, it is still very much worthy for me to have them. Create life, an unique being which is a mix of you and your partner. Nothing else in life comes close to proper achievement in life, be it professional or personal (and I've achieved much more than was expected from me on all levels). That's me (and many many people around us who already have them, lives are changed forever and for the better). If one doesn't want them, that's perfectly fine, find your own drive. But raising kids ain't some ancient, obsolete un-cool goal/achievement, in contrary.
    - username90 7y ago
      > If one doesn't want them, that's perfectly fine, find your own drive. But raising kids ain't some ancient, obsolete un-cool goal/achievement, in contrary. Nobody said that you shouldn't want a kid, just that it is fine to not want one. Telling people who don't want kids that they are missing out on unconditional love is disingenuous.
      - hvidgaard 7y ago
        > Telling people who don't want kids that they are missing out on unconditional love is disingenuous. I don't think anyone in this thread has made that claim. Just buy a dog if you want unconditional love. But it certainly is one major "benefit" of having children.
        username90 7y ago
        You said you got unconditional love from your kid. Unconditional means that you could replace yourself with any other person and it would have worked out the same. I don't think that is true, lots of parents don't get that benefit. Love from your kids is something you earn through hard work as a parent and not just something you get unconditionally. It is mostly true for dogs though, I agree.
gumby 7y ago
True in developed countries but still not necessarily true in certain societies where you need hands for untrained labor or where children are essentially saleable goods.
- homonculus1 7y ago
  Ahh, Hacker News. "Why should you have kids? Well, in some places you can sell them!"
  - blaser-waffle 7y ago
    To go full HN you need to argue they're overvalued as an offering, and they probably need to be re-done (re-conceived?) in Rust.
    - throwaway66920 7y ago
      My kids are highly scalable. Extrapolating current growth rates, we can expect them to be the largest creatures ever created in 6 years. I value the opportunity at $120B. Profit sharing equity only, no parental rights.
  - gumby 7y ago
    Please read the follow up I made to my comment, which was not intended to be sarcastic.
  - dang 7y ago
    "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- gumby 7y ago
  Normally it’s bad form to comment on receiving downvotes but in his case I’ll point out that I spent a lot of time in such a country as a kid as I have a parent from that country (although said parent had only two siblings and their family didn’t practice bride price / have kids work to support family etc). Not all reasons for having a large family are religious; some are just desire, of course, and some are indeed economically rational. That last is part of the reason, I believe, that birth rate drops as wealth increases, and is yet another reason to try to increase wealth for everyone.
pixl97 7y ago
Is extinction tangible or intangible?
- cjfd 7y ago
  Quite intangible. Insofar as our genes want anything they want us to reproduce but they do so by nudging us in the general direction of reproducing, not, in most people at least, by the conscious wish to reproduce.
- username90 7y ago
  Humanity won't go extinct if you don't have kids. What you do is not what everyone else does. Example: If everyone had 3 kids then earth would quickly become overpopulated and billions would starve. But that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with having 3 kids today.
mikelyons 7y ago
Seems like having someone care for you when you're elderly is tangible, but maybe because you can buy this care it's not?

That's what I do now when people ask me if they should have kids. I always say the same thing: All the benefits are intangible and all the drawbacks are tangible.

hvidgaard 7y ago

All the unconditional love you experience and the pure joy and pride of experiencing the little person grow up is simply not something I can explain. I can explain that you will spend a lot of money and time on them, worry a lot and you will lose sleep over all the worry you have. Is it worth it? I'm obviously biased, so my answer is to be taken with a grain of salt.

username90 7y ago
There is no such thing as unconditional love, even from your own children. For example if you have high trait neuroticism (vulnerable to negative emotions) then likely your kids will as well, so your family could very easily end up with everyone being miserable since nobody has the tools to properly deescalate setbacks, instead they'd just make it worse.
- hvidgaard 7y ago
  > There is no such thing as unconditional love. It never ceases to amaze me that you have to be so pedantic when saying something like this. I don't want to write a lengthy disclaimer explaining priors and terms - the entire point would drown in unnecessary prose. It obviously applies to normal families with normal parents with normal children. The love and affection from normal children to their normal parents are for all intents and purposes unconditional.
  - username90 7y ago
    > It obviously applies to normal families with normal parents with normal children. You are missing a thing: People who don't want kids are usually not normal people.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - blaser-waffle 7y ago
      Strongly disagree: it's perfectly normal and rational to not want kids, for the reasons listed above. You don't need to be neurotic, selfish, or lazy to not want kids. Doesn't mean the thought won't cross my mind on the regular, just not something to act on.
      - username90 7y ago
        I said most, not all. There is something strange or off about most people I know who don't want children, including myself. I'd almost say that the fact that you can stand against the social pressure to get a kid is evidence enough that you are strange in some way, if you can break that norm then you have probably broken several other norms as well.
- ChefboyOG 7y ago
  This comment is incredibly on brand for HN.
- saiya-jin 7y ago
  Now that's a sour argument with pointing to an tiny edge case. There are tons of edge cases - kids born with various diseases, be it physical or psychological, danger to mother etc. And anyway we all die, and so will all the matter in universe at one point... I've given tons of unconditional love as a child, I've seen it being received by many peers with kids, and hopefully will experience some of it with my own. Even if not, it is still very much worthy for me to have them. Create life, an unique being which is a mix of you and your partner. Nothing else in life comes close to proper achievement in life, be it professional or personal (and I've achieved much more than was expected from me on all levels). That's me (and many many people around us who already have them, lives are changed forever and for the better). If one doesn't want them, that's perfectly fine, find your own drive. But raising kids ain't some ancient, obsolete un-cool goal/achievement, in contrary.
  - username90 7y ago
    > If one doesn't want them, that's perfectly fine, find your own drive. But raising kids ain't some ancient, obsolete un-cool goal/achievement, in contrary. Nobody said that you shouldn't want a kid, just that it is fine to not want one. Telling people who don't want kids that they are missing out on unconditional love is disingenuous.
    - hvidgaard 7y ago
      > Telling people who don't want kids that they are missing out on unconditional love is disingenuous. I don't think anyone in this thread has made that claim. Just buy a dog if you want unconditional love. But it certainly is one major "benefit" of having children.
      - username90 7y ago
        You said you got unconditional love from your kid. Unconditional means that you could replace yourself with any other person and it would have worked out the same. I don't think that is true, lots of parents don't get that benefit. Love from your kids is something you earn through hard work as a parent and not just something you get unconditionally. It is mostly true for dogs though, I agree.

gumby 7y ago

True in developed countries but still not necessarily true in certain societies where you need hands for untrained labor or where children are essentially saleable goods.

homonculus1 7y ago
Ahh, Hacker News. "Why should you have kids? Well, in some places you can sell them!"
- blaser-waffle 7y ago
  To go full HN you need to argue they're overvalued as an offering, and they probably need to be re-done (re-conceived?) in Rust.
  - throwaway66920 7y ago
    My kids are highly scalable. Extrapolating current growth rates, we can expect them to be the largest creatures ever created in 6 years. I value the opportunity at $120B. Profit sharing equity only, no parental rights.
- gumby 7y ago
  Please read the follow up I made to my comment, which was not intended to be sarcastic.
- dang 7y ago
  "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
gumby 7y ago
Normally it’s bad form to comment on receiving downvotes but in his case I’ll point out that I spent a lot of time in such a country as a kid as I have a parent from that country (although said parent had only two siblings and their family didn’t practice bride price / have kids work to support family etc). Not all reasons for having a large family are religious; some are just desire, of course, and some are indeed economically rational. That last is part of the reason, I believe, that birth rate drops as wealth increases, and is yet another reason to try to increase wealth for everyone.

pixl97 7y ago

Is extinction tangible or intangible?

cjfd 7y ago
Quite intangible. Insofar as our genes want anything they want us to reproduce but they do so by nudging us in the general direction of reproducing, not, in most people at least, by the conscious wish to reproduce.
username90 7y ago
Humanity won't go extinct if you don't have kids. What you do is not what everyone else does. Example: If everyone had 3 kids then earth would quickly become overpopulated and billions would starve. But that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with having 3 kids today.

mikelyons 7y ago

Seems like having someone care for you when you're elderly is tangible, but maybe because you can buy this care it's not?