4 ms·

Beyond your last point on concentration camp, the US isn't a shining example of "imprisons, and sometimes kills," and "systematically destroyed peaceful culture

Beyond your last point on concentration camp, the US isn't a shining example of "imprisons, and sometimes kills," and "systematically destroyed peaceful cultures" either. And the bail system where poor people can be held for not having money to post bail is akin to decentralized concentration camps around the country. That you can say is a stretch, but you get the point.

spats1990 7y ago
"Only the US is allowed to mistreat Muslims and only when the Muslims are foreigners" is a thermonuclear take of mine that I mostly keep to myself, because it doesn't really help anybody and just makes people mad, and because (most importantly imo) two things can be bad at the same time.
- jowday 7y ago
  The big difference between the situation in Xinjiang and the US's treatment of Muslims and illegal immigrants, IMO, is China's censorship of any opposition to the government's actions. Prominent politicians and members of the media openly criticize and report on the US's unethical actions - any such speech in China is strictly controlled and punished.
  - spats1990 7y ago
    >The big difference between the situation in Xinjiang and the US's treatment of Muslims and illegal immigrants, IMO, is China's censorship of any opposition to the government's actions. Sure. And the Chinese govt's surveillance apparatus is that much scarier for operating in such (relatively) plain sight. We are getting into actual specifics now, which is not the purpose of the thermonuclear take I posted above. As I said, two things can be bad at the same time. It seems I'm better-informed than the average person about the various Badnesses of the Chinese government, but that probably says more about the people I hang out with than anything else. That said, the sudden uptick in the last few months of China-as-boogeyman in media and the conversation of Westerners has me watching with a kind of sick fascination. I save the thermonuclear take for when someone appears essentially misinformed and is just repeating whatever Bloomberg article they read last. Spratly Islands? Meh, it's called the South China Sea for a reason. Sometimes you just want to hit the big red launch button and point out that in fact, the Chinese and US governments can probably find some common ground. Where? Well, in their prolific torturing, maiming, and murdering of innocent Muslims over the last decade or two... ^^;
pcwalton 7y ago
> And the bail system where poor people can be held for not having money to post bail is akin to decentralized concentration camps around the country. Cash bail should be abolished, but there is absolutely nothing in common between the Chinese government's treatment of the Uighur minority and the practice. There's literally a clause directly targeting this in the 8th Amendment, which has been enforced by the courts at various times to reduce bail. No such recourse is available to inmates of Chinese concentration camps. And the 4th Amendment, which the courts actually enforce, guarantees that you can't be thrown in jail without probable cause to begin with.
mda 7y ago
Oh, typical "What about US?" answer, bravo.
- europeanperson 7y ago
  What's wrong with reminding people (who are probably from the US) that their government is worse? The whataboutism that I see most on Hacker News is Americans complaining about the Chinese government, while their own country has a horrible record when it comes to human rights (Iraq War) and democracy (regime changes organised by the CIA).
  - post_below 7y ago
    As an American I make no claims about this country's righteousness. I'd put it on the top ten list of most evil countries without hesitation. But it's hard to take the argument that it's worse than China seriously.
post_below 7y ago
Who said anything about the US being a shining example?

spats1990 7y ago

"Only the US is allowed to mistreat Muslims and only when the Muslims are foreigners" is a thermonuclear take of mine that I mostly keep to myself, because it doesn't really help anybody and just makes people mad, and because (most importantly imo) two things can be bad at the same time.

jowday 7y ago
The big difference between the situation in Xinjiang and the US's treatment of Muslims and illegal immigrants, IMO, is China's censorship of any opposition to the government's actions. Prominent politicians and members of the media openly criticize and report on the US's unethical actions - any such speech in China is strictly controlled and punished.
- spats1990 7y ago
  >The big difference between the situation in Xinjiang and the US's treatment of Muslims and illegal immigrants, IMO, is China's censorship of any opposition to the government's actions. Sure. And the Chinese govt's surveillance apparatus is that much scarier for operating in such (relatively) plain sight. We are getting into actual specifics now, which is not the purpose of the thermonuclear take I posted above. As I said, two things can be bad at the same time. It seems I'm better-informed than the average person about the various Badnesses of the Chinese government, but that probably says more about the people I hang out with than anything else. That said, the sudden uptick in the last few months of China-as-boogeyman in media and the conversation of Westerners has me watching with a kind of sick fascination. I save the thermonuclear take for when someone appears essentially misinformed and is just repeating whatever Bloomberg article they read last. Spratly Islands? Meh, it's called the South China Sea for a reason. Sometimes you just want to hit the big red launch button and point out that in fact, the Chinese and US governments can probably find some common ground. Where? Well, in their prolific torturing, maiming, and murdering of innocent Muslims over the last decade or two... ^^;

pcwalton 7y ago

> And the bail system where poor people can be held for not having money to post bail is akin to decentralized concentration camps around the country. Cash bail should be abolished, but there is absolutely nothing in common between the Chinese government's treatment of the Uighur minority and the practice. There's literally a clause directly targeting this in the 8th Amendment, which has been enforced by the courts at various times to reduce bail. No such recourse is available to inmates of Chinese concentration camps. And the 4th Amendment, which the courts actually enforce, guarantees that you can't be thrown in jail without probable cause to begin with.

mda 7y ago

Oh, typical "What about US?" answer, bravo.

europeanperson 7y ago
What's wrong with reminding people (who are probably from the US) that their government is worse? The whataboutism that I see most on Hacker News is Americans complaining about the Chinese government, while their own country has a horrible record when it comes to human rights (Iraq War) and democracy (regime changes organised by the CIA).
- post_below 7y ago
  As an American I make no claims about this country's righteousness. I'd put it on the top ten list of most evil countries without hesitation. But it's hard to take the argument that it's worse than China seriously.

post_below 7y ago

Who said anything about the US being a shining example?