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I'll try it without citations :) Because China is an authoritarian regime that imprisons, and sometimes kills, people for their opinions. Because China system

I'll try it without citations :) Because China is an authoritarian regime that imprisons, and sometimes kills, people for their opinions. Because China systematically destroyed one of the oldest and most peaceful cultures the world has ever seen in Tibet. Because China put 100's of 1000's of Muslims in concentration camps. A program which is still happening by all (non Chinese government) accounts. And so on. Not that Apple makes decisions based on moral considerations.

yesplorer 7y ago
Beyond your last point on concentration camp, the US isn't a shining example of "imprisons, and sometimes kills," and "systematically destroyed peaceful cultures" either. And the bail system where poor people can be held for not having money to post bail is akin to decentralized concentration camps around the country. That you can say is a stretch, but you get the point.
- spats1990 7y ago
  "Only the US is allowed to mistreat Muslims and only when the Muslims are foreigners" is a thermonuclear take of mine that I mostly keep to myself, because it doesn't really help anybody and just makes people mad, and because (most importantly imo) two things can be bad at the same time.
  - jowday 7y ago
    The big difference between the situation in Xinjiang and the US's treatment of Muslims and illegal immigrants, IMO, is China's censorship of any opposition to the government's actions. Prominent politicians and members of the media openly criticize and report on the US's unethical actions - any such speech in China is strictly controlled and punished.
    - spats1990 7y ago
      >The big difference between the situation in Xinjiang and the US's treatment of Muslims and illegal immigrants, IMO, is China's censorship of any opposition to the government's actions. Sure. And the Chinese govt's surveillance apparatus is that much scarier for operating in such (relatively) plain sight. We are getting into actual specifics now, which is not the purpose of the thermonuclear take I posted above. As I said, two things can be bad at the same time. It seems I'm better-informed than the average person about the various Badnesses of the Chinese government, but that probably says more about the people I hang out with than anything else. That said, the sudden uptick in the last few months of China-as-boogeyman in media and the conversation of Westerners has me watching with a kind of sick fascination. I save the thermonuclear take for when someone appears essentially misinformed and is just repeating whatever Bloomberg article they read last. Spratly Islands? Meh, it's called the South China Sea for a reason. Sometimes you just want to hit the big red launch button and point out that in fact, the Chinese and US governments can probably find some common ground. Where? Well, in their prolific torturing, maiming, and murdering of innocent Muslims over the last decade or two... ^^;
- pcwalton 7y ago
  > And the bail system where poor people can be held for not having money to post bail is akin to decentralized concentration camps around the country. Cash bail should be abolished, but there is absolutely nothing in common between the Chinese government's treatment of the Uighur minority and the practice. There's literally a clause directly targeting this in the 8th Amendment, which has been enforced by the courts at various times to reduce bail. No such recourse is available to inmates of Chinese concentration camps. And the 4th Amendment, which the courts actually enforce, guarantees that you can't be thrown in jail without probable cause to begin with.
- mda 7y ago
  Oh, typical "What about US?" answer, bravo.
  - europeanperson 7y ago
    What's wrong with reminding people (who are probably from the US) that their government is worse? The whataboutism that I see most on Hacker News is Americans complaining about the Chinese government, while their own country has a horrible record when it comes to human rights (Iraq War) and democracy (regime changes organised by the CIA).
    - post_below 7y ago
      As an American I make no claims about this country's righteousness. I'd put it on the top ten list of most evil countries without hesitation. But it's hard to take the argument that it's worse than China seriously.
- post_below 7y ago
  Who said anything about the US being a shining example?
throwaway4589 7y ago
> Because China systematically destroyed one of the oldest and most peaceful cultures the world has ever seen in Tibet. If the criteria is to not have destroyed another culture, then there aren't a lot of countries to manufacture in.
- post_below 7y ago
  Sure... but I was just answering the question of why Apple might have a moral concern by a previous poster. That said, there are plenty of countries that haven't done anything approaching the scale of what China did in Tibet in the last few decades.
hurrdurr2 7y ago
You should do some actual research on what exactly the culture in Tibet was like before China took over. Not excusing the behavior of the CCP but look up what the lamas were doing back in the day. It wasn't some Hollywood "paradise" like most people believe.
- mikelyons 7y ago
  Are there any human institutions where you _can't_ just say "oh those supposed good people did evil too"? I'm legitimately curious if evil is struck throughout 'both' sides in any situation ...
- ng12 7y ago
  I wasn't aware human rights had to be earned.
jakobegger 7y ago
You forgot to mention medical tourism for organ transplants taken from young, healthy people that happen to follow the wrong ideology.
mytailorisrich 7y ago
Anyone who claims that Tibetans have "one of the most peaceful culture" knows the topic only through watching the Dalai Lama on TV. The reality is that they are the same as everyone else.
- post_below 7y ago
  *were
  - umanwizard 7y ago
    Tibetans still exist.
    - post_below 7y ago
      It was a joke... but also at least a million of them were killed, they're now an ethnic minority in Tibet, practice of their spiritual beliefs is either outright banned or strictly controlled. Being Tibetan means something very different than it meant prior to 1959.
      - mytailorisrich 7y ago
        90% of the population of Tibet is of tibetan ethnicity and there are areas of tibetan majority outside of the autonomous region (sometimes referred to as greater Tibet) People practice their religion openly.
      - umanwizard 7y ago
        > they're now an ethnic minority in Tibet, practice of their spiritual beliefs is either outright banned or strictly controlled. Not according to Wikipedia: "In 2011 the Tibetan population was three million.[33] The ethnic Tibetans, comprising 90.48% of the population,[34] mainly adhere to Tibetan Buddhism and Bön, although there is an ethnic Tibetan Muslim community." Also not according to my personal experience. I've never been to the Tibetan Autonomous Region, but I have been to an ethnically Tibetan part of Sichuan, and you certainly see a majority of people who look Tibetan, people speak the Tibetan language, taxi drivers ask if you don't mind if they stop and pray at Tibetan Buddhist shrines along the road, restaurants serve yak butter tea, and so on. There's simply no way to claim that Tibetan culture is gone or even endangered.
umanwizard 7y ago
The Chinese state does all of that, which doesn’t mean that normal Chinese people are evil. So why does it mean that they should be impoverished or that it’s morally wrong to contribute to their economic development?

yesplorer 7y ago

Beyond your last point on concentration camp, the US isn't a shining example of "imprisons, and sometimes kills," and "systematically destroyed peaceful cultures" either. And the bail system where poor people can be held for not having money to post bail is akin to decentralized concentration camps around the country. That you can say is a stretch, but you get the point.

spats1990 7y ago
"Only the US is allowed to mistreat Muslims and only when the Muslims are foreigners" is a thermonuclear take of mine that I mostly keep to myself, because it doesn't really help anybody and just makes people mad, and because (most importantly imo) two things can be bad at the same time.
- jowday 7y ago
  The big difference between the situation in Xinjiang and the US's treatment of Muslims and illegal immigrants, IMO, is China's censorship of any opposition to the government's actions. Prominent politicians and members of the media openly criticize and report on the US's unethical actions - any such speech in China is strictly controlled and punished.
  - spats1990 7y ago
    >The big difference between the situation in Xinjiang and the US's treatment of Muslims and illegal immigrants, IMO, is China's censorship of any opposition to the government's actions. Sure. And the Chinese govt's surveillance apparatus is that much scarier for operating in such (relatively) plain sight. We are getting into actual specifics now, which is not the purpose of the thermonuclear take I posted above. As I said, two things can be bad at the same time. It seems I'm better-informed than the average person about the various Badnesses of the Chinese government, but that probably says more about the people I hang out with than anything else. That said, the sudden uptick in the last few months of China-as-boogeyman in media and the conversation of Westerners has me watching with a kind of sick fascination. I save the thermonuclear take for when someone appears essentially misinformed and is just repeating whatever Bloomberg article they read last. Spratly Islands? Meh, it's called the South China Sea for a reason. Sometimes you just want to hit the big red launch button and point out that in fact, the Chinese and US governments can probably find some common ground. Where? Well, in their prolific torturing, maiming, and murdering of innocent Muslims over the last decade or two... ^^;
pcwalton 7y ago
> And the bail system where poor people can be held for not having money to post bail is akin to decentralized concentration camps around the country. Cash bail should be abolished, but there is absolutely nothing in common between the Chinese government's treatment of the Uighur minority and the practice. There's literally a clause directly targeting this in the 8th Amendment, which has been enforced by the courts at various times to reduce bail. No such recourse is available to inmates of Chinese concentration camps. And the 4th Amendment, which the courts actually enforce, guarantees that you can't be thrown in jail without probable cause to begin with.
mda 7y ago
Oh, typical "What about US?" answer, bravo.
- europeanperson 7y ago
  What's wrong with reminding people (who are probably from the US) that their government is worse? The whataboutism that I see most on Hacker News is Americans complaining about the Chinese government, while their own country has a horrible record when it comes to human rights (Iraq War) and democracy (regime changes organised by the CIA).
  - post_below 7y ago
    As an American I make no claims about this country's righteousness. I'd put it on the top ten list of most evil countries without hesitation. But it's hard to take the argument that it's worse than China seriously.
post_below 7y ago
Who said anything about the US being a shining example?

throwaway4589 7y ago

> Because China systematically destroyed one of the oldest and most peaceful cultures the world has ever seen in Tibet. If the criteria is to not have destroyed another culture, then there aren't a lot of countries to manufacture in.

post_below 7y ago
Sure... but I was just answering the question of why Apple might have a moral concern by a previous poster. That said, there are plenty of countries that haven't done anything approaching the scale of what China did in Tibet in the last few decades.

hurrdurr2 7y ago

You should do some actual research on what exactly the culture in Tibet was like before China took over. Not excusing the behavior of the CCP but look up what the lamas were doing back in the day. It wasn't some Hollywood "paradise" like most people believe.

mikelyons 7y ago
Are there any human institutions where you _can't_ just say "oh those supposed good people did evil too"? I'm legitimately curious if evil is struck throughout 'both' sides in any situation ...
ng12 7y ago
I wasn't aware human rights had to be earned.

jakobegger 7y ago

You forgot to mention medical tourism for organ transplants taken from young, healthy people that happen to follow the wrong ideology.

mytailorisrich 7y ago

Anyone who claims that Tibetans have "one of the most peaceful culture" knows the topic only through watching the Dalai Lama on TV. The reality is that they are the same as everyone else.

post_below 7y ago
*were
- umanwizard 7y ago
  Tibetans still exist.
  - post_below 7y ago
    It was a joke... but also at least a million of them were killed, they're now an ethnic minority in Tibet, practice of their spiritual beliefs is either outright banned or strictly controlled. Being Tibetan means something very different than it meant prior to 1959.
    - mytailorisrich 7y ago
      90% of the population of Tibet is of tibetan ethnicity and there are areas of tibetan majority outside of the autonomous region (sometimes referred to as greater Tibet) People practice their religion openly.
    - umanwizard 7y ago
      > they're now an ethnic minority in Tibet, practice of their spiritual beliefs is either outright banned or strictly controlled. Not according to Wikipedia: "In 2011 the Tibetan population was three million.[33] The ethnic Tibetans, comprising 90.48% of the population,[34] mainly adhere to Tibetan Buddhism and Bön, although there is an ethnic Tibetan Muslim community." Also not according to my personal experience. I've never been to the Tibetan Autonomous Region, but I have been to an ethnically Tibetan part of Sichuan, and you certainly see a majority of people who look Tibetan, people speak the Tibetan language, taxi drivers ask if you don't mind if they stop and pray at Tibetan Buddhist shrines along the road, restaurants serve yak butter tea, and so on. There's simply no way to claim that Tibetan culture is gone or even endangered.

umanwizard 7y ago

The Chinese state does all of that, which doesn’t mean that normal Chinese people are evil. So why does it mean that they should be impoverished or that it’s morally wrong to contribute to their economic development?