4 ms·

It's amazing that something so sexist could have been suggested without backlash. Imagine if studies indicated that low testosterone limited or in some way hin

It's amazing that something so sexist could have been suggested without backlash. Imagine if studies indicated that low testosterone limited or in some way hindered another desirable human capability. People have been fired for it and reputations ruined. Suggesting men are emotionally stunted. Oh that's fine.

rch 7y ago
They should try correlating hormone ratios with a total lack of interest in either outcome.
skizm 7y ago
I mean, you should be able to claim either if you have evidence. We should be looking for truth, not virtue signalling by withholding findings because it might hurt some people's feelings.
- ping_pong 7y ago
  James Damore referenced scientific papers in his post and his intent got twisted, he got vilified and subsequently fired by Google. He never said women were unfit for engineering or women weren't as smart as men, he said that Google should change the nature of engineering such that the career is more appealing to a higher percentage of females. Do you really want to be the one that endures an unfair attack and have your intent twisted and ruin your career, just to try to prove a point? You would be a stronger person than me, I would just pass at this point and move on.
- toop43 7y ago
  That's a pipe dream in 2019.
- belorn 7y ago
  Parent comment could have been written in better tone but the underlying aspect holds some very real historical truth. In the past popular opinion and scientist agreed that estrogen caused emotional instability, and it was infamously used as an argument against the suffrage movement. Now days we know that those studies in the past was severely flawed and that the historical research was shaped by culture rather than rigorous science and facts. An observed fact and problem with behavior science is that they tend to align based on the culture of where the research is taking place. In Germany around 1940 you got very distinct results in behavior science compared to modern views. Behavior research made during the cold war looks very different depending which side of the Berlin wall it came from, even when accounting for sample size and scientific methods. There are theories that tries to explain this, like for example that researchers tend to focus narrowly on questions that feel relevant in their personal culture, and then drawing larger conclusions.
rozab 7y ago
There is still strong evidence that excess testosterone causes anger and other undesirable effects [0]. Why should there be a backlash when there is evidence? On the other hand, it has been an accepted truism for many decades that the female brain is less capable of many tasks, and I haven't seen firings and ruined reputations over this. The science of this is now being seriously questioned. [0] https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/89/6/2837/2870329 https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/89/6/2837/2870329
- anon1m0us 7y ago
  > anger and other undesirable effects. "other" could mean these from the linked article: > The growing literature on androgenic anabolic steroid (AAS) usage suggests that some users can develop bouts of aggression known as steroid rage, mood disturbance, hypomania, irritability, and depressive episodes (9–15). Whenever I think about ourselves, I think from an evolutionary perspective. All of the mentioned effects exist in species other than humans. I can list several reasons why the behaviors could be considered desirable. Also note, the article says the only significantly increased emotion was anger hostility. Why does anger exist?
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    I have no dog in this hunt, but body builders tend to claim that conversion of testosterone to estrogen and resulting high levels of that are what causes mood issues. Which is why they all take aromatase inhibitors.
  - goblin89 7y ago
    Why does anger exist? Personally I can’t see how anger can be anything else but a manifestation of certain underlying fear as a defensive response. (That said, those emotions seem to be conventionally recognized as mostly unrelated.)
    - taneq 7y ago
      I'd like to see Yoda cite his sources on that "fear leads to anger" thing. This whole construction that it's impossible to react negatively to something without being motivated by fear is, IMO, unsubstantiated at best. It's entirely possible to dislike something or be irritated by it without fearing it.
erikpukinskis 7y ago
What’s your evidence there was no backlash? This kind of finding seems like the type of thing both MRAs and a majority of feminists¹ would object to. I can’t even see the title of the original paper since this one is paywalled. I was going to go try to quantify this “absence of backlash” you mentioned. ¹ It is sort of an interesting question, which majority of feminists that is. Some liberal, trans-inclusive, biological-constructivist feminists who believe in a notion of a “female brain” would potentially see no problem with the study. That is quite a minority though. The vast majority of liberal feminists would be “social constructivist” feminists who believe male/female brain differences are overblown and would view the study incredulously. Similarly, some biological-essentialist radical feminists do believe in comprehensive sex differences, and would be amenable to the finding. These would be your typical “man haters”, who are vocal online because their ideas are not welcome hardly anywhere. However, the vast majority of radical feminists believe the male/female sex differences have primarily to do with reproductive organs and, again, brain differences are overblown. And therefore would also be incredulous of the result. So all-in-all the vast majority of feminists would by default object to the study. But there is a sex-essentialist slice that cuts across the liberal/radical divide who would entertain the ideas. On the MRA side too I believe there are sex essentialists who would be fine with the study, although many more liberal MRAs would object to it purely on the grounds of it portraying men in a negative light. I’m less familiar with the ideological divisions in that group though. As a side note, this is part of why liberal and radical feminists are able to hate each other and talk past each other: both sides can credibly accuse the other of harboring biological essentialists.
- anon1m0us 7y ago
  My only evidence is that I didn't hear of one. Didn't even hear about the studies. Perhaps they just confirmed what everyone already thought or wanted to believe or the gender disparaged by the studies didn't care enough to raise a fuss. Whatever the reason. I did hear about the president of Harvard being fired though. I read about The Bell Curve. Damore. The list goes on and on. You must know what I'm talking about. Maybe I'm just biased so I filter bubble out evidence that sexism is sexist.
  - 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
rossdavidh 7y ago
Well there is a statistically (very) significant difference in the (diagnosed) rate of autism between men and women, so it's not so audacious a claim.
blarg1 7y ago
better analogy would be estrogen causing hysteria :)
chr1 7y ago
Maybe in part this is due to many men not considering it as a desirable human capability. If one considers reason to be much more important than emotion, strives to hide all displays of emotion, being emotionally stunted feels more like a compliment than offence.
ShinTakuya 7y ago
I think we should be able to suggest either thing without backlash, as long as you don't say it's certain until it's proven.
lazyguy2 7y ago
It's not sexist to suggest that testosterone impacts the body and mind. Male hormones exist for a reason and one of those big reasons is to impact behavior in various ways, including sex drive. What is sexist is assuming testosterone is responsible for autism and acting on that 'knowledge' without proof in some manner that impacts other people's lives.
- cjohansson 7y ago
  If their sample did not inlude autistic men you can’t really draw any conclusions about autism from this study
dang 7y ago
Please don't take HN threads into flamewar. I understand the feeling you're expressing completely. But if you just import this resentment into the thread in an unprocessed way, it acidifies discussion and makes it harder for people to be thoughtful and share information across divides. Not just the gender-ideological divide, but any divide. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21139988 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21139988.
- anon1m0us 7y ago
  Understood. Thank you.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

rch 7y ago

They should try correlating hormone ratios with a total lack of interest in either outcome.

skizm 7y ago

I mean, you should be able to claim either if you have evidence. We should be looking for truth, not virtue signalling by withholding findings because it might hurt some people's feelings.

ping_pong 7y ago
James Damore referenced scientific papers in his post and his intent got twisted, he got vilified and subsequently fired by Google. He never said women were unfit for engineering or women weren't as smart as men, he said that Google should change the nature of engineering such that the career is more appealing to a higher percentage of females. Do you really want to be the one that endures an unfair attack and have your intent twisted and ruin your career, just to try to prove a point? You would be a stronger person than me, I would just pass at this point and move on.
toop43 7y ago
That's a pipe dream in 2019.
belorn 7y ago
Parent comment could have been written in better tone but the underlying aspect holds some very real historical truth. In the past popular opinion and scientist agreed that estrogen caused emotional instability, and it was infamously used as an argument against the suffrage movement. Now days we know that those studies in the past was severely flawed and that the historical research was shaped by culture rather than rigorous science and facts. An observed fact and problem with behavior science is that they tend to align based on the culture of where the research is taking place. In Germany around 1940 you got very distinct results in behavior science compared to modern views. Behavior research made during the cold war looks very different depending which side of the Berlin wall it came from, even when accounting for sample size and scientific methods. There are theories that tries to explain this, like for example that researchers tend to focus narrowly on questions that feel relevant in their personal culture, and then drawing larger conclusions.

rozab 7y ago

There is still strong evidence that excess testosterone causes anger and other undesirable effects [0]. Why should there be a backlash when there is evidence? On the other hand, it has been an accepted truism for many decades that the female brain is less capable of many tasks, and I haven't seen firings and ruined reputations over this. The science of this is now being seriously questioned. [0] https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/89/6/2837/2870329 https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/89/6/2837/2870329

anon1m0us 7y ago
> anger and other undesirable effects. "other" could mean these from the linked article: > The growing literature on androgenic anabolic steroid (AAS) usage suggests that some users can develop bouts of aggression known as steroid rage, mood disturbance, hypomania, irritability, and depressive episodes (9–15). Whenever I think about ourselves, I think from an evolutionary perspective. All of the mentioned effects exist in species other than humans. I can list several reasons why the behaviors could be considered desirable. Also note, the article says the only significantly increased emotion was anger hostility. Why does anger exist?
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  I have no dog in this hunt, but body builders tend to claim that conversion of testosterone to estrogen and resulting high levels of that are what causes mood issues. Which is why they all take aromatase inhibitors.
- goblin89 7y ago
  Why does anger exist? Personally I can’t see how anger can be anything else but a manifestation of certain underlying fear as a defensive response. (That said, those emotions seem to be conventionally recognized as mostly unrelated.)
  - taneq 7y ago
    I'd like to see Yoda cite his sources on that "fear leads to anger" thing. This whole construction that it's impossible to react negatively to something without being motivated by fear is, IMO, unsubstantiated at best. It's entirely possible to dislike something or be irritated by it without fearing it.

erikpukinskis 7y ago

What’s your evidence there was no backlash? This kind of finding seems like the type of thing both MRAs and a majority of feminists¹ would object to. I can’t even see the title of the original paper since this one is paywalled. I was going to go try to quantify this “absence of backlash” you mentioned. ¹ It is sort of an interesting question, which majority of feminists that is. Some liberal, trans-inclusive, biological-constructivist feminists who believe in a notion of a “female brain” would potentially see no problem with the study. That is quite a minority though. The vast majority of liberal feminists would be “social constructivist” feminists who believe male/female brain differences are overblown and would view the study incredulously. Similarly, some biological-essentialist radical feminists do believe in comprehensive sex differences, and would be amenable to the finding. These would be your typical “man haters”, who are vocal online because their ideas are not welcome hardly anywhere. However, the vast majority of radical feminists believe the male/female sex differences have primarily to do with reproductive organs and, again, brain differences are overblown. And therefore would also be incredulous of the result. So all-in-all the vast majority of feminists would by default object to the study. But there is a sex-essentialist slice that cuts across the liberal/radical divide who would entertain the ideas. On the MRA side too I believe there are sex essentialists who would be fine with the study, although many more liberal MRAs would object to it purely on the grounds of it portraying men in a negative light. I’m less familiar with the ideological divisions in that group though. As a side note, this is part of why liberal and radical feminists are able to hate each other and talk past each other: both sides can credibly accuse the other of harboring biological essentialists.

anon1m0us 7y ago
My only evidence is that I didn't hear of one. Didn't even hear about the studies. Perhaps they just confirmed what everyone already thought or wanted to believe or the gender disparaged by the studies didn't care enough to raise a fuss. Whatever the reason. I did hear about the president of Harvard being fired though. I read about The Bell Curve. Damore. The list goes on and on. You must know what I'm talking about. Maybe I'm just biased so I filter bubble out evidence that sexism is sexist.
- 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

rossdavidh 7y ago

Well there is a statistically (very) significant difference in the (diagnosed) rate of autism between men and women, so it's not so audacious a claim.

blarg1 7y ago

better analogy would be estrogen causing hysteria :)

chr1 7y ago

Maybe in part this is due to many men not considering it as a desirable human capability. If one considers reason to be much more important than emotion, strives to hide all displays of emotion, being emotionally stunted feels more like a compliment than offence.

ShinTakuya 7y ago

I think we should be able to suggest either thing without backlash, as long as you don't say it's certain until it's proven.

lazyguy2 7y ago

It's not sexist to suggest that testosterone impacts the body and mind. Male hormones exist for a reason and one of those big reasons is to impact behavior in various ways, including sex drive. What is sexist is assuming testosterone is responsible for autism and acting on that 'knowledge' without proof in some manner that impacts other people's lives.

cjohansson 7y ago
If their sample did not inlude autistic men you can’t really draw any conclusions about autism from this study

dang 7y ago

Please don't take HN threads into flamewar. I understand the feeling you're expressing completely. But if you just import this resentment into the thread in an unprocessed way, it acidifies discussion and makes it harder for people to be thoughtful and share information across divides. Not just the gender-ideological divide, but any divide. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21139988 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21139988.

anon1m0us 7y ago
Understood. Thank you.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]