5 ms·

> Amazingly, it turns out that in a vacuum, the activity of programming a computer isn't actually gendered. Also mirrored by the fact that other cultures do no

by zwkrt 7y ago

> Amazingly, it turns out that in a vacuum, the activity of programming a computer isn't actually gendered. Also mirrored by the fact that other cultures do not experience this issue so acutely.

pessimizer 7y ago
Including US culture 50 or more years ago, when most programmers were women.
- microcolonel 7y ago
  I'm of the impression that this is a misconception. 50 years ago, "programmer" was a different job. Imagine if executives were just called secretaries now and that's a decent analogy for what I think happened to programmers and architects.
  - tomlock 7y ago
    I'm of the impression that back in 1959 when COBOL was released, with a team of 7 designers with 3 women on it, based off the groundwork laid by Grace Hopper, that the technical skill required to be a programmer was actually much higher, and that the women involved in coding were making very technical decisions about that field.
    - lanstin 7y ago
      Yeah, I'm of the impression that the intellect required to do software now is much lower - no need to understand bits and bytes or to do math, just sling a bunch of libraries together with glue code from stack over flow and voila a ML system to categorize trouble tickets. Understanding the distinction between the reals and the IEEE double floats is alas long since vanished.
    - username90 7y ago
      Back then programming was basically applied mathematics, a field with many women. Today programming is gluing together components in order to build systems which is much more similar to engineering, a field with few women. There are still many women among those who program mathematics (statisticians etc), just that they are usually not called programmers. Also there is much less demand for people who can program math than people who can glue together libraries and create crud apps, so even if all math programmers are included in the statistics they would get dwarfed by the app programmers. Source of the combination mathematics and statistics being a gender balanced field, above 40% women: https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2017/nsf17310/digest/fod-women/mathematics-and-statistics.cfm https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2017/nsf17310/digest/fod-wome... Engineering always being male dominated, around 15% women: https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2017/nsf17310/digest/fod-women/engineering.cfm https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2017/nsf17310/digest/fod-wome... Computer science gender balance getting lowered to engineering levels: https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2017/nsf17310/digest/fod-women/computer-sciences.cfm https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2017/nsf17310/digest/fod-wome...
    - Chris2048 7y ago
      I think the role was called "computer"?
microcolonel 7y ago
Other cultures as in what? Far as I can tell, the best predictor of female participation in technical work is poverty. In rich countries with free women, engineering tends to sit around 90% male, and nursing tends to sit around 90% female. The freer and richer women are, the more likely they are to be found in stereotypical fields.
TheOperator 7y ago
A culture having "less issues with this" seems to be strongly associated with that culture having conservative views and more socioeconomic issues. I see more women programmers coming out of conservative poor Asian countries than progressive wealthy Nordic countries. I get the impression women are pushed into programming for reasons of economic stress or incentives in countries where less of a programming gender gap exists. To me if a country having less of a gender gap in programming implies either sexism or economic stress. You can really interpret the prevalence of trans women in programming as being related to nurture or nature. The data point in a vacuum doesn't obviously point to either conclusion.

by zwkrt 7y ago

> Amazingly, it turns out that in a vacuum, the activity of programming a computer isn't actually gendered. Also mirrored by the fact that other cultures do not experience this issue so acutely.

pessimizer 7y ago

Including US culture 50 or more years ago, when most programmers were women.

microcolonel 7y ago
I'm of the impression that this is a misconception. 50 years ago, "programmer" was a different job. Imagine if executives were just called secretaries now and that's a decent analogy for what I think happened to programmers and architects.
- tomlock 7y ago
  I'm of the impression that back in 1959 when COBOL was released, with a team of 7 designers with 3 women on it, based off the groundwork laid by Grace Hopper, that the technical skill required to be a programmer was actually much higher, and that the women involved in coding were making very technical decisions about that field.
  - lanstin 7y ago
    Yeah, I'm of the impression that the intellect required to do software now is much lower - no need to understand bits and bytes or to do math, just sling a bunch of libraries together with glue code from stack over flow and voila a ML system to categorize trouble tickets. Understanding the distinction between the reals and the IEEE double floats is alas long since vanished.
  - username90 7y ago
    Back then programming was basically applied mathematics, a field with many women. Today programming is gluing together components in order to build systems which is much more similar to engineering, a field with few women. There are still many women among those who program mathematics (statisticians etc), just that they are usually not called programmers. Also there is much less demand for people who can program math than people who can glue together libraries and create crud apps, so even if all math programmers are included in the statistics they would get dwarfed by the app programmers. Source of the combination mathematics and statistics being a gender balanced field, above 40% women: https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2017/nsf17310/digest/fod-women/mathematics-and-statistics.cfm https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2017/nsf17310/digest/fod-wome... Engineering always being male dominated, around 15% women: https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2017/nsf17310/digest/fod-women/engineering.cfm https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2017/nsf17310/digest/fod-wome... Computer science gender balance getting lowered to engineering levels: https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2017/nsf17310/digest/fod-women/computer-sciences.cfm https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2017/nsf17310/digest/fod-wome...
  - Chris2048 7y ago
    I think the role was called "computer"?

microcolonel 7y ago

Other cultures as in what? Far as I can tell, the best predictor of female participation in technical work is poverty. In rich countries with free women, engineering tends to sit around 90% male, and nursing tends to sit around 90% female. The freer and richer women are, the more likely they are to be found in stereotypical fields.

TheOperator 7y ago

A culture having "less issues with this" seems to be strongly associated with that culture having conservative views and more socioeconomic issues. I see more women programmers coming out of conservative poor Asian countries than progressive wealthy Nordic countries. I get the impression women are pushed into programming for reasons of economic stress or incentives in countries where less of a programming gender gap exists. To me if a country having less of a gender gap in programming implies either sexism or economic stress. You can really interpret the prevalence of trans women in programming as being related to nurture or nature. The data point in a vacuum doesn't obviously point to either conclusion.