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Examples? Islam is not as old as Christianity. Nor Judaism. This seems wrong on the face of it. Oh sure, there might be some lost tribe in the Amazon but I don

Examples? Islam is not as old as Christianity. Nor Judaism. This seems wrong on the face of it. Oh sure, there might be some lost tribe in the Amazon but I don't accept it, even if it is technically long-lived. Interest is how we pay people to save and share their savings with others. Growth and reinvestment is much easier with it. This is why the Muslim world has come up with financial gymnastics to reward savers without technically paying some interest.

_bxg1 7y ago
> Islam is not as old as Christianity. Nor Judaism. This seems wrong on the face of it. Sorry, what? What does that have to do with anything?
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  If you're looking for examples of "long-lived civilizations" on Earth, you might be interested in the longest-living cultural institutions. Islam, Christianity and Judaism are such millennia-old institutions. And, a bit contrary to GP's point, all of them have, or had, limited bans on interest.
  - rubyskills 7y ago
    I think this is because of the context at the time. Your borrower should be aware of what they're signing up for. Debtor's prisons also existed. There is a lot different then than now and I think lending is a much safer activity today if is regulated properly. I like to think of religion as early law. Pork was also probably not a very healthy meat to eat at the time. Now it is probably an outdated thing.
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      Perhaps. I'm not saying there was any divine knowledge involved, whether about interest or pork. It's just that if you're looking for evidence in favor of the quote at the beginning of this thread, these three organized religions - one of the longest-living cultural institutions on the planet - are good examples.
WorldMaker 7y ago
You do realize that the Islamic prohibition on interest comes directly from the Christian New Testament, right? That early Christians forbade interest for centuries? That some Christian groups still forbid collecting interest?
- Thiez 7y ago
  It is no coincidence that many jews used to be in the money lending business in those times. They could not charge interest on loans made to other jews, but christians (and other non-jews) were fair game. Sadly this did not improve their popularity...
  - lazyasciiart 7y ago
    Lots of other reasons too, like fears of being driven out of town and having to abandon any physical goods and stores, not being allowed to own land (so no farmers), not being allowed to join many craft guilds....
  - gowld 7y ago
    Also, Christians were banned from lending, but didn't ban lending, so they needed non-Christians to fill the need.
- faissaloo 7y ago
  Jews also forbid interest among themselves.
- WillPostForFood 7y ago
  So maybe the quote should be: "Every truly long-lived civilization gives up on banning interest"
- reissbaker 7y ago
  As other posters have mentioned, but to put a little more emphasis on how this worked: the Christian world of early to middle Europe banned Christians collecting interest on loans (which, effectively, banned Christians from operating loan-based financial service businesses). They didn't ban interest on loans in general, and in fact depended on loans with interest. They outsourced their financial services to their minority Jewish populations, and then every hundred years or so when the interest payments piled up too high, they evicted and/or massacred all their Jews, and seized their property. Not a great deal for the Jews! Although they were also legally barred from doing almost any other work (they could also be tax-collectors, which was hardly a better job)[1]. But it's definitely not the case that the civilizations of Christian Europe didn't have loans with interest. This was also largely true in Islamic societies: they did rely on loans with interest, by once again relying on their minority Jewish population to provide financial services. [2] Unlike the Christians, though, the Muslims generally paid back their loans instead of murdering their creditors. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_antisemitism#Restrictions_to_marginal_occupations_(tax_collecting,_moneylending,_etc.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_antisemitism#Restrict... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riba#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riba#History
rossdavidh 7y ago
Both Christianity and Judaism have, at various points in the past, had bans on interest (amongst themselves, anyway), even if in more recent (and secular) times those have been ignored.

_bxg1 7y ago

> Islam is not as old as Christianity. Nor Judaism. This seems wrong on the face of it. Sorry, what? What does that have to do with anything?

TeMPOraL 7y ago
If you're looking for examples of "long-lived civilizations" on Earth, you might be interested in the longest-living cultural institutions. Islam, Christianity and Judaism are such millennia-old institutions. And, a bit contrary to GP's point, all of them have, or had, limited bans on interest.
- rubyskills 7y ago
  I think this is because of the context at the time. Your borrower should be aware of what they're signing up for. Debtor's prisons also existed. There is a lot different then than now and I think lending is a much safer activity today if is regulated properly. I like to think of religion as early law. Pork was also probably not a very healthy meat to eat at the time. Now it is probably an outdated thing.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    Perhaps. I'm not saying there was any divine knowledge involved, whether about interest or pork. It's just that if you're looking for evidence in favor of the quote at the beginning of this thread, these three organized religions - one of the longest-living cultural institutions on the planet - are good examples.

WorldMaker 7y ago

You do realize that the Islamic prohibition on interest comes directly from the Christian New Testament, right? That early Christians forbade interest for centuries? That some Christian groups still forbid collecting interest?

Thiez 7y ago
It is no coincidence that many jews used to be in the money lending business in those times. They could not charge interest on loans made to other jews, but christians (and other non-jews) were fair game. Sadly this did not improve their popularity...
- lazyasciiart 7y ago
  Lots of other reasons too, like fears of being driven out of town and having to abandon any physical goods and stores, not being allowed to own land (so no farmers), not being allowed to join many craft guilds....
- gowld 7y ago
  Also, Christians were banned from lending, but didn't ban lending, so they needed non-Christians to fill the need.
faissaloo 7y ago
Jews also forbid interest among themselves.
WillPostForFood 7y ago
So maybe the quote should be: "Every truly long-lived civilization gives up on banning interest"
reissbaker 7y ago
As other posters have mentioned, but to put a little more emphasis on how this worked: the Christian world of early to middle Europe banned Christians collecting interest on loans (which, effectively, banned Christians from operating loan-based financial service businesses). They didn't ban interest on loans in general, and in fact depended on loans with interest. They outsourced their financial services to their minority Jewish populations, and then every hundred years or so when the interest payments piled up too high, they evicted and/or massacred all their Jews, and seized their property. Not a great deal for the Jews! Although they were also legally barred from doing almost any other work (they could also be tax-collectors, which was hardly a better job)[1]. But it's definitely not the case that the civilizations of Christian Europe didn't have loans with interest. This was also largely true in Islamic societies: they did rely on loans with interest, by once again relying on their minority Jewish population to provide financial services. [2] Unlike the Christians, though, the Muslims generally paid back their loans instead of murdering their creditors. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_antisemitism#Restrictions_to_marginal_occupations_(tax_collecting,_moneylending,_etc.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_antisemitism#Restrict... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riba#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riba#History

rossdavidh 7y ago

Both Christianity and Judaism have, at various points in the past, had bans on interest (amongst themselves, anyway), even if in more recent (and secular) times those have been ignored.