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Why do teachers have such an elevated standing in society anyways? If we're being honest, schools are, for the most part, daycare centers. Secondary education i

Why do teachers have such an elevated standing in society anyways? If we're being honest, schools are, for the most part, daycare centers. Secondary education is, for the most part, completely useless. Yet, unlike with most other professions, the government guarantees that those glorified daycare jobs will continue to exist. Why should these jobs pay well?

Qwertystop 7y ago
Because they ought to be more than that? In some cases, perhaps, because they _are_ more than that? I'm pretty sure my K-12 education (public school) and college (private university) were both above average, but I definitely learned _something_ from at least a few classes every year in K-12, and at least could tell you what sorts of things I've forgotten from them. Meanwhile, I couldn't tell you what about half of my college classes were even _supposed_ to have taught, shortly before graduation, despite passing all of them with (almost all) high marks.
- gridlockd 7y ago
  > I definitely learned _something_ from at least a few classes every year in K-12 What if the guy managing your retirement fund lost 85% of your money, would you stick with him because you got to keep at least some of it? > Meanwhile, I couldn't tell you what about half of my college classes were even _supposed_ to have taught, shortly before graduation, despite passing all of them with (almost all) high marks. Are you beginning to see a pattern here?
  - Qwertystop 7y ago
    My point is that public primary and secondary schooling seems to have been more effective (anecdotally) than private higher education. This is a strike against the idea that the government shouldn't be paying for it, in that in at least this one case the government paying for it seems to be working better than a non-government organization doing that doing so. Since educational institutions aren't going to disappear altogether, those are the alternatives.
    - gridlockd 7y ago
      > My point is that public primary and secondary schooling seems to have been more effective (anecdotally) than private higher education. Primary and secondary public education often fails to provide basic literacy competence. As a result, a high-school diploma isn't worth much, but the right college degree statistically is worth even the absurd prices that are now being paid for them. > This is a strike against the idea that the government shouldn't be paying for it, in that in at least this one case the government paying for it seems to be working better than a non-government organization doing that doing so. The government can pay for it without running it, see the Swedish model and the voucher system, which has resulted in improvements. However, teacher unions are obviously against this. They fear their jobs will be less secure if most parents had a real choice in where to enroll their children.
ArtDev 7y ago
It requires expertise, skill, education and a strong personality. Where did you go to school? Sounds like a bad one.
maximente 7y ago
you're right, it's not important to have an educated citizenry. we can just set them up with iPads and have them watch YouTube all day for a lot less - let's get a couple startups going on this ASAP - keywords: disruption, innovation, EdTech, Hadoop in all seriousness, i'd love for the US government to throw serious cash at teachers' salaries. it's basically a wise investment in the country's future. so what if they're daycare teachers? we have plenty of $ to spend on providing a safe place and food for our children in the US for 8 hours a day. a lot of the money is spent on the backend on welfare or prisons anyway, so it's probably not very expensive when the externalities are factored in. looking outside the US, i think Finland understood they had no resources other than timber, snow, and their population and started tooling up their educational system, to the tune of high salaries/prestige/perks or something for teachers (someone will correct me here). anyway, they do really well on int'l standardized tests (yes this is not ideal, but is useful at least as a relative measurement) and seem to have one of the highest per capita incomes in the world, low GINI, etc. if it weren't so darned cold and dark seasonally, i'd be interested in relocating there for the sake of my children's education.
- gridlockd 7y ago
  > You're right, it's not important to have an educated citizenry. Did you, in all honesty, go through the public school system and came out with an "yeah we need more like that"? Seriously? > in all seriousness, i'd love for the US government to throw serious cash at teachers' salaries. it's basically a wise investment in the country's future. You really believe that? > so what if they're daycare teachers? we have plenty of $ to spend on providing a safe place and food for our children in the US for 8 hours a day. Schools, a safe place? Where did even you go to school? > a lot of the money is spent on the backend on welfare or prisons anyway, so it's probably not very expensive when the externalities are factored in. I'm pretty sure most of the prison inmates had their share of public education. > Finland You can't just pick your favorite nordic country and act like it is representative of anything. What about France? Total free government education and massive youth unemployment. What about Spain? Everyone is running around with one or more degrees, but no job.
scarejunba 7y ago
I'm with you. I just had to study really hard to get successful and my teachers didn't contribute very much to that. What did help was having peers who also wanted to do really well and having parents who pushed me hard. And besides, we have that old HN saw: "If you can't hire anyone, you aren't paying enough.". Well, that coin has another side: "If you're hiring lots of people, you're paying enough.".
a_imho 7y ago
Probably to attract the talent required to upgrade them from daycare centers.

Qwertystop 7y ago

Because they ought to be more than that? In some cases, perhaps, because they _are_ more than that? I'm pretty sure my K-12 education (public school) and college (private university) were both above average, but I definitely learned _something_ from at least a few classes every year in K-12, and at least could tell you what sorts of things I've forgotten from them. Meanwhile, I couldn't tell you what about half of my college classes were even _supposed_ to have taught, shortly before graduation, despite passing all of them with (almost all) high marks.

gridlockd 7y ago
> I definitely learned _something_ from at least a few classes every year in K-12 What if the guy managing your retirement fund lost 85% of your money, would you stick with him because you got to keep at least some of it? > Meanwhile, I couldn't tell you what about half of my college classes were even _supposed_ to have taught, shortly before graduation, despite passing all of them with (almost all) high marks. Are you beginning to see a pattern here?
- Qwertystop 7y ago
  My point is that public primary and secondary schooling seems to have been more effective (anecdotally) than private higher education. This is a strike against the idea that the government shouldn't be paying for it, in that in at least this one case the government paying for it seems to be working better than a non-government organization doing that doing so. Since educational institutions aren't going to disappear altogether, those are the alternatives.
  - gridlockd 7y ago
    > My point is that public primary and secondary schooling seems to have been more effective (anecdotally) than private higher education. Primary and secondary public education often fails to provide basic literacy competence. As a result, a high-school diploma isn't worth much, but the right college degree statistically is worth even the absurd prices that are now being paid for them. > This is a strike against the idea that the government shouldn't be paying for it, in that in at least this one case the government paying for it seems to be working better than a non-government organization doing that doing so. The government can pay for it without running it, see the Swedish model and the voucher system, which has resulted in improvements. However, teacher unions are obviously against this. They fear their jobs will be less secure if most parents had a real choice in where to enroll their children.

ArtDev 7y ago

It requires expertise, skill, education and a strong personality. Where did you go to school? Sounds like a bad one.

maximente 7y ago

you're right, it's not important to have an educated citizenry. we can just set them up with iPads and have them watch YouTube all day for a lot less - let's get a couple startups going on this ASAP - keywords: disruption, innovation, EdTech, Hadoop in all seriousness, i'd love for the US government to throw serious cash at teachers' salaries. it's basically a wise investment in the country's future. so what if they're daycare teachers? we have plenty of $ to spend on providing a safe place and food for our children in the US for 8 hours a day. a lot of the money is spent on the backend on welfare or prisons anyway, so it's probably not very expensive when the externalities are factored in. looking outside the US, i think Finland understood they had no resources other than timber, snow, and their population and started tooling up their educational system, to the tune of high salaries/prestige/perks or something for teachers (someone will correct me here). anyway, they do really well on int'l standardized tests (yes this is not ideal, but is useful at least as a relative measurement) and seem to have one of the highest per capita incomes in the world, low GINI, etc. if it weren't so darned cold and dark seasonally, i'd be interested in relocating there for the sake of my children's education.

gridlockd 7y ago
> You're right, it's not important to have an educated citizenry. Did you, in all honesty, go through the public school system and came out with an "yeah we need more like that"? Seriously? > in all seriousness, i'd love for the US government to throw serious cash at teachers' salaries. it's basically a wise investment in the country's future. You really believe that? > so what if they're daycare teachers? we have plenty of $ to spend on providing a safe place and food for our children in the US for 8 hours a day. Schools, a safe place? Where did even you go to school? > a lot of the money is spent on the backend on welfare or prisons anyway, so it's probably not very expensive when the externalities are factored in. I'm pretty sure most of the prison inmates had their share of public education. > Finland You can't just pick your favorite nordic country and act like it is representative of anything. What about France? Total free government education and massive youth unemployment. What about Spain? Everyone is running around with one or more degrees, but no job.

scarejunba 7y ago

I'm with you. I just had to study really hard to get successful and my teachers didn't contribute very much to that. What did help was having peers who also wanted to do really well and having parents who pushed me hard. And besides, we have that old HN saw: "If you can't hire anyone, you aren't paying enough.". Well, that coin has another side: "If you're hiring lots of people, you're paying enough.".

a_imho 7y ago

Probably to attract the talent required to upgrade them from daycare centers.