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TIL gas taxes paid for Boston's Big Dig. What states actually reap a surplus from personal auto fees? Meanwhile, are you including in your thought process any

TIL gas taxes paid for Boston's Big Dig. What states actually reap a surplus from personal auto fees? Meanwhile, are you including in your thought process any of the following? - Public land permanently dedicated to roads, highways, parking lots, etc - Parking minimums in zoning codes - Police resources dedicated to traffic enforcement - Wars of aggression fought to preserve oil prices - Oil industry subsidies - Innocent deaths and crippling lifetime injuries caused by automobiles - Massive declining public health due to sedentary lifestyles (sitting on your butt in a driver's seat)

wcunning 7y ago
In order: Public land will be permanently dedicated to rails and stations and things, if you want to cover the same area with transit access, you'll need similar, if not the same public land. Parking minimums are not about being pro-car so much as being about anti-poor. This is a subsidy to entrenched interests, not to cars. Police make money from traffic enforcement. Many departments get their whole budget from that. Many towns get their whole budget, above and beyond the PD, from it. Eliminate cars tomorrow and you bankrupt a huge percentage of non-major cities and all small towns. Wars of aggression over oil are likely over due to fracking and oil sands, but I'll grant that they were bad while they were happening. Now, how are your predominantly diesel trains going to be powered without oil? Oil subsidies are a problem. I would love to see congestion pricing and an end to all subsidies for transit, trains, buses, cars, bikes and pedestrian behaviors. We do not and never will again live in that world. Deaths due to automobiles are at a record low per passenger mile and continuing to fall. Every time we make roads and cars and esp new cars more expensive, these rise as people limp their dangerous old clunker along a bit more. Weirdly, the requirements for safety technology cause people to drive older, less fuel efficient cars and the requirements for better emissions cause people to drive older, less safe cars all due to rising prices. Perhaps we should subsidize the removal of old cars (cash for clunkers)? I don't think you can blame sedentary lifestyles on driving. That's a step too far -- it's a factor, but it's by no means the biggest or the most consistent. I doubt that we'd be able to attribute anywhere near enough health problem to only and specifically long commutes to even really price this externality.
- labawi 7y ago
  1) Single occupant car transport is the least space efficient mode of travel in wide use, with wide margins. That even includes dedicated rail, if reasonably frequented, as in a moderately dense city. 2) Phrase it as you may, parking minimums raise cost of housing and/or disperse the cities increasing distances traveled, turning cheap options of walking or cycling into requisite car travel, which again widens roads, increasing distances... 3) No idea if true. Even so, less cars and less oil should leave more available resources for more useful things. Bad funding schemes are an argument, but I would consider it a sufficient one. 4) Yes they were bad. Probably still are. Trains can be electrified and no idea how that relates to wars. 5) I agree car subsidies are bad. Not sure about feasibility or seriousness of proposed end on pedestrian subsidies. Would you stop building sidewalks? Roads? 6) I will deflect to a more pressing concern and argue car travel inflicted pollution collectively does significantly more harm to health and quality of life of most residents, than the few, yet no less tragic traffic accidents. How about we don't incentivize car usage, including all the reasons that make it convenient, useful and often almost unavoidable, like zoning, parking, wide roads, cheap fuel etc? Car is a car, and in this instance, newer cars may be even worse polluters with their tire particulate. 7) Sedentary life style is not about length of commute. If you don't own a powered personal transporter, you will almost certainly either walk more or cycle more or at least stand on your motorized scooter as you do want to get somewhere.
zaroth 7y ago
$38 billion a year in sales taxes from new and used automobiles and services. $66 billion a year in use taxes including fuel, excise, and registration. That’s just the direct revenue. If you want to include externalities, you also have to include economic activity enabled by these investments, and the taxes on those activities. Just the auto sector alone produces $60 billion of income tax revenue for state and Federal governments. But that’s not even scratching the surface of total economic activity supported by the national highway infrastructure, or state and local infrastructure, which arguably holds up double digits percentages of GDP. State income taxes rise and fall based on their infrastructure investments. Even the Big Dig (at $14 billion in cost I assume due to massive fraud) eventually not only pays for itself but is massively profitable from a combination of vehicle cost savings and in future revenue streams from increased economic activity enabled by the new infrastructure and added prime real estate. [1] A lot of people die or are injured on the highways. Did you also attempt to measure the lives bettered and saved because of those same highways? An informed discussion balances positives and negatives of any activity, along with the positives and negatives of a proposed substitute. There’s a reason why infrastructure spending is one of the very few things which garners almost universal support from all political parties. [1] - https://www.edrgroup.com/library/highways/economic-impact-central-arterytunnel.html https://www.edrgroup.com/library/highways/economic-impact-ce...
- megaremote 7y ago
  Road crashes cost the U.S. $230.6 billion per year, or an average of $820 per person. https://www.asirt.org/safe-travel/road-safety-facts/ https://www.asirt.org/safe-travel/road-safety-facts/
  - zaroth 7y ago
    Actually it’s much worse than that. $277 billion is the economic cost of car accidents. The cost including lost wages and human suffering is estimated at $871 billion per year. [1] There’s a difference between direct revenue & expenses and second-order effects. As a second order effect, roads are necessary for something on the order of $10 trillion of economic activity in the US. It’s a high price to pay to be sure, for the modern world. I look forward to self driving technology significantly reducing that number over the next 10-15 years. [1] - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/motor-vehicle-crashes-u-s-cost-871-billion-year-federal-study-finds https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/motor-vehicle-crashes-u-...
megaremote 7y ago
Don't forget about the huge amount of spending on hospitals and morgues required for the 40,000 dead every single year (more than guns shots), and 2.35 million that are injured or disabled.

wcunning 7y ago

In order: Public land will be permanently dedicated to rails and stations and things, if you want to cover the same area with transit access, you'll need similar, if not the same public land. Parking minimums are not about being pro-car so much as being about anti-poor. This is a subsidy to entrenched interests, not to cars. Police make money from traffic enforcement. Many departments get their whole budget from that. Many towns get their whole budget, above and beyond the PD, from it. Eliminate cars tomorrow and you bankrupt a huge percentage of non-major cities and all small towns. Wars of aggression over oil are likely over due to fracking and oil sands, but I'll grant that they were bad while they were happening. Now, how are your predominantly diesel trains going to be powered without oil? Oil subsidies are a problem. I would love to see congestion pricing and an end to all subsidies for transit, trains, buses, cars, bikes and pedestrian behaviors. We do not and never will again live in that world. Deaths due to automobiles are at a record low per passenger mile and continuing to fall. Every time we make roads and cars and esp new cars more expensive, these rise as people limp their dangerous old clunker along a bit more. Weirdly, the requirements for safety technology cause people to drive older, less fuel efficient cars and the requirements for better emissions cause people to drive older, less safe cars all due to rising prices. Perhaps we should subsidize the removal of old cars (cash for clunkers)? I don't think you can blame sedentary lifestyles on driving. That's a step too far -- it's a factor, but it's by no means the biggest or the most consistent. I doubt that we'd be able to attribute anywhere near enough health problem to only and specifically long commutes to even really price this externality.

labawi 7y ago
1) Single occupant car transport is the least space efficient mode of travel in wide use, with wide margins. That even includes dedicated rail, if reasonably frequented, as in a moderately dense city. 2) Phrase it as you may, parking minimums raise cost of housing and/or disperse the cities increasing distances traveled, turning cheap options of walking or cycling into requisite car travel, which again widens roads, increasing distances... 3) No idea if true. Even so, less cars and less oil should leave more available resources for more useful things. Bad funding schemes are an argument, but I would consider it a sufficient one. 4) Yes they were bad. Probably still are. Trains can be electrified and no idea how that relates to wars. 5) I agree car subsidies are bad. Not sure about feasibility or seriousness of proposed end on pedestrian subsidies. Would you stop building sidewalks? Roads? 6) I will deflect to a more pressing concern and argue car travel inflicted pollution collectively does significantly more harm to health and quality of life of most residents, than the few, yet no less tragic traffic accidents. How about we don't incentivize car usage, including all the reasons that make it convenient, useful and often almost unavoidable, like zoning, parking, wide roads, cheap fuel etc? Car is a car, and in this instance, newer cars may be even worse polluters with their tire particulate. 7) Sedentary life style is not about length of commute. If you don't own a powered personal transporter, you will almost certainly either walk more or cycle more or at least stand on your motorized scooter as you do want to get somewhere.

zaroth 7y ago

$38 billion a year in sales taxes from new and used automobiles and services. $66 billion a year in use taxes including fuel, excise, and registration. That’s just the direct revenue. If you want to include externalities, you also have to include economic activity enabled by these investments, and the taxes on those activities. Just the auto sector alone produces $60 billion of income tax revenue for state and Federal governments. But that’s not even scratching the surface of total economic activity supported by the national highway infrastructure, or state and local infrastructure, which arguably holds up double digits percentages of GDP. State income taxes rise and fall based on their infrastructure investments. Even the Big Dig (at $14 billion in cost I assume due to massive fraud) eventually not only pays for itself but is massively profitable from a combination of vehicle cost savings and in future revenue streams from increased economic activity enabled by the new infrastructure and added prime real estate. [1] A lot of people die or are injured on the highways. Did you also attempt to measure the lives bettered and saved because of those same highways? An informed discussion balances positives and negatives of any activity, along with the positives and negatives of a proposed substitute. There’s a reason why infrastructure spending is one of the very few things which garners almost universal support from all political parties. [1] - https://www.edrgroup.com/library/highways/economic-impact-central-arterytunnel.html https://www.edrgroup.com/library/highways/economic-impact-ce...

megaremote 7y ago
Road crashes cost the U.S. $230.6 billion per year, or an average of $820 per person. https://www.asirt.org/safe-travel/road-safety-facts/ https://www.asirt.org/safe-travel/road-safety-facts/
- zaroth 7y ago
  Actually it’s much worse than that. $277 billion is the economic cost of car accidents. The cost including lost wages and human suffering is estimated at $871 billion per year. [1] There’s a difference between direct revenue & expenses and second-order effects. As a second order effect, roads are necessary for something on the order of $10 trillion of economic activity in the US. It’s a high price to pay to be sure, for the modern world. I look forward to self driving technology significantly reducing that number over the next 10-15 years. [1] - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/motor-vehicle-crashes-u-s-cost-871-billion-year-federal-study-finds https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/motor-vehicle-crashes-u-...

megaremote 7y ago

Don't forget about the huge amount of spending on hospitals and morgues required for the 40,000 dead every single year (more than guns shots), and 2.35 million that are injured or disabled.