4 ms·

In Spanish, It's Not Your Fault

15 points by gnosis 16y ago

Mz 16y ago
This is awesome and I think it explains a lot about the warmth of Hispanic culture. As a default position, I don't assume people are 'guilty' of things but I frequently get feedback from folks who seem to feel I have attacked, criticized, accused, etc. It is hard in English to convey "x happened (but I am not blaming you)". Excerpt: Se han perdido las llaves “The keys have lost themselves.” I didn’t lose the keys. They did it to themselves. La planta que me diste se me ha muerto. “The plant you gave me has died on me.” I didn’t kill it! And it didn’t just die, it died for me. I will add that in the last year or so, I have taken a cue from Spanish and French and started saying "No problem" most of the time when thanked. I think the phrase "You're welcome" reinforces a sense of social obligation that makes me uncomfortable -- a sense of indebtedness. "De rien" or "de nada" ("it's nothing") acknowledges the "thank you" without conveying a sense of "now you owe me". So I have begun trying to find an English version of conveying that idea/feeling/social paradigm. "No problem" is the reply I find myself using most often.
- sp332 16y ago
  Why do you feel that "you're welcome" implies an obligation? It means just the opposite. If someone thanks you for giving them something, you are telling them "oh, you are welcome to take it", which means that they don't owe you anything for it.
  - Mz 16y ago
    Why do you feel that "you're welcome" implies an obligation Because my observation/experience is that in American culture, most people operate from a default assumption of one up/one down and are constantly jockeying for their position in pecking order. I get this type of thing a lot less from other cultures. But quite a lot of Americans seem unable to interact as equals and are constantly trying to force the other person into a one down position in order to avoid being in the one down position themselves. I am painfully aware of this because, frequently, if I refuse to take the one down position and try to interact as equals, they react like I am trying to insult and oppress them and force them into the one down position -- many people seem unable to conceive of some other paradigm. Saying "You are welcome" suggests "I provided you with something of value, thus I am one up on you." -- at least to most people I interact with. I do a lot of things to try to disengage from this process of jockeying for position. I dislike it intensely.
    - maxawaytoolong 16y ago
      What is a concrete example of saying "you're welcome" where it leads to the oppression you're describing?
      - Mz 16y ago
        I find that when I tell people "you are welcome" in online forums where I have a reputation as someone who is knowledgeable, it reinforces the idea that 'some folks here know stuff and the rest are losers and are just here to ask questions and beg for help'. I have actively combated that tendency for years in online forums I have belonged to. I have found that "no problem" or "no big" or a similar response fosters more equitable conversation, where more members feel able to be contributing members who know stuff and can give information. Saying "You are welcome" reinforces the idea that what I have shared is "advice" rather than "information" and suggests I have some authority to tell them how to live their lives, which is generally something I do not want. In my experience, it creates a great many problems (edit: including people vociferously attacking me and trying to tear down my supposed "authority", which I never wanted in the first place). Sharing anecdotes, telling my story, sharing information -- this is something any member can do for the benefit of the group as a whole without needing to be "right" or "authoritative" and it undermines the tendency to fight for pecking order which typically goes on.
- cgs1019 16y ago
  I spent some time in Puerto Rico and found that the third person reflexive is commonly used this way as a sort of passive voice. For example, a "for sale" sign will read "se vende" (loosely, "it is sold" moreso than "it sells itself"). Having worked in the service industry (restaurants, specifically) for many years, I have an inclination to avoid "no problem" as it may be construed that whatever isn't a problem might have been. I generally opt for "my pleasure," "anytime," "sure thing," etc. when I am interfacing with someone for whom I provide a service.
  - Mz 16y ago
    You know, I'm sort of a hippie-tree-hugger, make-love-not-war kind of personality and I find that when I say things like "my pleasure" or "anytime", it makes some of my social problems worse. Those are the types of phrases I am inclined to use, but for some reason it just makes people feel like I owe them, they can impose, I am never allowed to make a mistake or have a bad day or not be able to give 1000% or...something. I have never been able to quite put my finger on the cause of these strong emotional reactions I get from quite a lot of people where total strangers seem to think I am supposed to love them, to the ends of the earth. But I have found I need to actively tone down my tendency to be warm, effusive, emotionally generous and the like. It just causes me too many problems. At the moment, much of the time when I am being thanked, it is for disseminating information at work -- tips and tricks that make my job easier. This is supposed to be part of the culture and something we are all encouraged to do. But I get these gushy responses that I think are just not work appropriate. I have found that a low key "no problem" seems to be the lesser evil of my available options. (Not replying seems to make people feel incredibly, phenomenally rejected by me.)
    - chronomex 16y ago
      I usually say "my pleasure"; when that doesn't work for me I go with a simple "certainly". It has the feel of "that's my job and I'm doing it" to me.
      - Mz 16y ago
        I think one of the issues at work is that I have an entry level job and a great deal more formal education than my coworkers and both my immediate bosses (though one of them is actively pursuing more education, and that seems to help reduce my problems). So a lot of my tips and tricks are dramatically better answers. It causes problems. I try to deflect the uptick in perceived social status. I don't make any more money than these other people or have any more authority. It's important that I get treated as their equal. I will have to keep "certainly" in mind and see if I can't find a good way to use that.
- patrickaljord 16y ago
  > “The keys have lost themselves.” I didn’t lose the keys. They did it to themselves. A better translation would be: "The keys have been lost", this is how you translate Spanish passive voice. Passive voice is always impersonal, even in English. Looks like the article author got confused. Also, passive voice is not used that often in Spanish, maybe a bit more than in English but not that much.
  - Mz 16y ago
    Sometimes, transliteration has it's value. I don't know much Spanish, but my understanding is that "se" basically means "themselves". It might not be how it is officially translated, but it seems to me it does convey something about Spanish that you probably can't convey by translating it into the standard English it would typically be translated into. I do a lot of transliteration when learning a new language. I find it helpful.
    - patrickaljord 16y ago
      I speak Spanish everyday, this is just the passive voice, it's just as impersonal as English passive voice, nothing special here. It's like a Spanish guy transliterating "the keys have been lost" to spanish and then claiming: "In English, it's not your fault". Doesn't make sense.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
jgershen 16y ago
I've always liked the correspondence between idioms in natural languages and idioms in programming languages, especially as it pertains to how we think about problems. See http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html (May 2002) for a great explanation.
gnosis 16y ago
Mirror of the article: http://www.erik-rasmussen.com.nyud.net/blog/2009/07/24/in-spanish-its-not-your-fault/ http://www.erik-rasmussen.com.nyud.net/blog/2009/07/24/in-sp...
nachopg 16y ago
That's indeed very interesting. Linguistic relativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity) is IMHO one of the most appealing approaches because it seeks to reveal the mysteries I'm interested about when it comes to linguistics. A very good reference for this topic, in this aspect, is Lakoff and Johnson's book on the 'domestic' metaphors: "Metaphors We Live By" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual_metaphor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual_metaphor). They illustrate how the crystalized metaphors in each language show the underlying cultural ways of molding the reality that is presented equally to each culture. (BTW, I have a major in spanish linguistics, hence my interest, hence my poor english)
aristus 16y ago
I'm not sure how far you can take this line of reasoning without fooling yourself. But some words are not like the others. "Gustar" is usually rendered as to like. That leads to weird mistakes, eg a Spanish speaker may say "you like me" when they mean "I like you". A more correct translation is to please, eg "me gusta esto" -> "this pleases me". The constructions are not from an alien world, they are just more like Shakespearian English than modern.
torrenegra 16y ago
As a native Spanish speaker from Colombia I also love the topic of linguistic relativity :) Some of the Spanish examples sound uncommon to me, though. "Se han perdido las llaves" is grammatically correct, but I would not use it. Instead I would say "boté las llaves" if I lost them ("I lost the keys"), or "las llaves se perdieron" if somebody else lost them but I didn't want to accuse that person ("the keys got lost). Also, I never think of things doing actions "for me" but, instead, "on me". For example, if say "La planta que me diste se me ha muerto" ("the plant you gave me has died on me") I would not be implying that the plant "died for me", but only that the plant died while on my possession. P.S. Just in case, in real-life this is what I say: "¿Dónde están las putas llaves?"
- paradoja 16y ago
  I am a native Spanish speaker from the Canary Islands. It's is quite clear that the author is learning mainland Spain's Spanish, as he uses "patata" for potato, instead of "papa", which I believe is used everywhere else. There, those phrases are quite common ones to use for that situations.
  - Mz 16y ago
    So perhaps it should be "In Spain, it's not your fault"?
PixelRobot 16y ago
I think the author is taking Spanish too literally here. Just because the literal translation doesn't imply blame or seems to take it away for an English speaker doesn't mean that Spanish speakers don't see it there. "Se han perdido las llaves" is not going to make you look less guilty than "I lost the keys" when used in context.
dawkins 16y ago
As a native Spanish speaker I never thought that I was expressing something different when talking in English. You would say "se me han perdido las llaves". The "me" implies that I am the one who lost them. Probably the thoughts are universal and we just express them in different ways.

15 points by gnosis 16y ago

Mz 16y ago

This is awesome and I think it explains a lot about the warmth of Hispanic culture. As a default position, I don't assume people are 'guilty' of things but I frequently get feedback from folks who seem to feel I have attacked, criticized, accused, etc. It is hard in English to convey "x happened (but I am not blaming you)". Excerpt: Se han perdido las llaves “The keys have lost themselves.” I didn’t lose the keys. They did it to themselves. La planta que me diste se me ha muerto. “The plant you gave me has died on me.” I didn’t kill it! And it didn’t just die, it died for me. I will add that in the last year or so, I have taken a cue from Spanish and French and started saying "No problem" most of the time when thanked. I think the phrase "You're welcome" reinforces a sense of social obligation that makes me uncomfortable -- a sense of indebtedness. "De rien" or "de nada" ("it's nothing") acknowledges the "thank you" without conveying a sense of "now you owe me". So I have begun trying to find an English version of conveying that idea/feeling/social paradigm. "No problem" is the reply I find myself using most often.

sp332 16y ago
Why do you feel that "you're welcome" implies an obligation? It means just the opposite. If someone thanks you for giving them something, you are telling them "oh, you are welcome to take it", which means that they don't owe you anything for it.
- Mz 16y ago
  Why do you feel that "you're welcome" implies an obligation Because my observation/experience is that in American culture, most people operate from a default assumption of one up/one down and are constantly jockeying for their position in pecking order. I get this type of thing a lot less from other cultures. But quite a lot of Americans seem unable to interact as equals and are constantly trying to force the other person into a one down position in order to avoid being in the one down position themselves. I am painfully aware of this because, frequently, if I refuse to take the one down position and try to interact as equals, they react like I am trying to insult and oppress them and force them into the one down position -- many people seem unable to conceive of some other paradigm. Saying "You are welcome" suggests "I provided you with something of value, thus I am one up on you." -- at least to most people I interact with. I do a lot of things to try to disengage from this process of jockeying for position. I dislike it intensely.
  - maxawaytoolong 16y ago
    What is a concrete example of saying "you're welcome" where it leads to the oppression you're describing?
    - Mz 16y ago
      I find that when I tell people "you are welcome" in online forums where I have a reputation as someone who is knowledgeable, it reinforces the idea that 'some folks here know stuff and the rest are losers and are just here to ask questions and beg for help'. I have actively combated that tendency for years in online forums I have belonged to. I have found that "no problem" or "no big" or a similar response fosters more equitable conversation, where more members feel able to be contributing members who know stuff and can give information. Saying "You are welcome" reinforces the idea that what I have shared is "advice" rather than "information" and suggests I have some authority to tell them how to live their lives, which is generally something I do not want. In my experience, it creates a great many problems (edit: including people vociferously attacking me and trying to tear down my supposed "authority", which I never wanted in the first place). Sharing anecdotes, telling my story, sharing information -- this is something any member can do for the benefit of the group as a whole without needing to be "right" or "authoritative" and it undermines the tendency to fight for pecking order which typically goes on.
cgs1019 16y ago
I spent some time in Puerto Rico and found that the third person reflexive is commonly used this way as a sort of passive voice. For example, a "for sale" sign will read "se vende" (loosely, "it is sold" moreso than "it sells itself"). Having worked in the service industry (restaurants, specifically) for many years, I have an inclination to avoid "no problem" as it may be construed that whatever isn't a problem might have been. I generally opt for "my pleasure," "anytime," "sure thing," etc. when I am interfacing with someone for whom I provide a service.
- Mz 16y ago
  You know, I'm sort of a hippie-tree-hugger, make-love-not-war kind of personality and I find that when I say things like "my pleasure" or "anytime", it makes some of my social problems worse. Those are the types of phrases I am inclined to use, but for some reason it just makes people feel like I owe them, they can impose, I am never allowed to make a mistake or have a bad day or not be able to give 1000% or...something. I have never been able to quite put my finger on the cause of these strong emotional reactions I get from quite a lot of people where total strangers seem to think I am supposed to love them, to the ends of the earth. But I have found I need to actively tone down my tendency to be warm, effusive, emotionally generous and the like. It just causes me too many problems. At the moment, much of the time when I am being thanked, it is for disseminating information at work -- tips and tricks that make my job easier. This is supposed to be part of the culture and something we are all encouraged to do. But I get these gushy responses that I think are just not work appropriate. I have found that a low key "no problem" seems to be the lesser evil of my available options. (Not replying seems to make people feel incredibly, phenomenally rejected by me.)
  - chronomex 16y ago
    I usually say "my pleasure"; when that doesn't work for me I go with a simple "certainly". It has the feel of "that's my job and I'm doing it" to me.
    - Mz 16y ago
      I think one of the issues at work is that I have an entry level job and a great deal more formal education than my coworkers and both my immediate bosses (though one of them is actively pursuing more education, and that seems to help reduce my problems). So a lot of my tips and tricks are dramatically better answers. It causes problems. I try to deflect the uptick in perceived social status. I don't make any more money than these other people or have any more authority. It's important that I get treated as their equal. I will have to keep "certainly" in mind and see if I can't find a good way to use that.
patrickaljord 16y ago
> “The keys have lost themselves.” I didn’t lose the keys. They did it to themselves. A better translation would be: "The keys have been lost", this is how you translate Spanish passive voice. Passive voice is always impersonal, even in English. Looks like the article author got confused. Also, passive voice is not used that often in Spanish, maybe a bit more than in English but not that much.
- Mz 16y ago
  Sometimes, transliteration has it's value. I don't know much Spanish, but my understanding is that "se" basically means "themselves". It might not be how it is officially translated, but it seems to me it does convey something about Spanish that you probably can't convey by translating it into the standard English it would typically be translated into. I do a lot of transliteration when learning a new language. I find it helpful.
  - patrickaljord 16y ago
    I speak Spanish everyday, this is just the passive voice, it's just as impersonal as English passive voice, nothing special here. It's like a Spanish guy transliterating "the keys have been lost" to spanish and then claiming: "In English, it's not your fault". Doesn't make sense.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

jgershen 16y ago

I've always liked the correspondence between idioms in natural languages and idioms in programming languages, especially as it pertains to how we think about problems. See http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html (May 2002) for a great explanation.

gnosis 16y ago

Mirror of the article: http://www.erik-rasmussen.com.nyud.net/blog/2009/07/24/in-spanish-its-not-your-fault/ http://www.erik-rasmussen.com.nyud.net/blog/2009/07/24/in-sp...

nachopg 16y ago

That's indeed very interesting. Linguistic relativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity) is IMHO one of the most appealing approaches because it seeks to reveal the mysteries I'm interested about when it comes to linguistics. A very good reference for this topic, in this aspect, is Lakoff and Johnson's book on the 'domestic' metaphors: "Metaphors We Live By" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual_metaphor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual_metaphor). They illustrate how the crystalized metaphors in each language show the underlying cultural ways of molding the reality that is presented equally to each culture. (BTW, I have a major in spanish linguistics, hence my interest, hence my poor english)

aristus 16y ago

I'm not sure how far you can take this line of reasoning without fooling yourself. But some words are not like the others. "Gustar" is usually rendered as to like. That leads to weird mistakes, eg a Spanish speaker may say "you like me" when they mean "I like you". A more correct translation is to please, eg "me gusta esto" -> "this pleases me". The constructions are not from an alien world, they are just more like Shakespearian English than modern.

torrenegra 16y ago

As a native Spanish speaker from Colombia I also love the topic of linguistic relativity :) Some of the Spanish examples sound uncommon to me, though. "Se han perdido las llaves" is grammatically correct, but I would not use it. Instead I would say "boté las llaves" if I lost them ("I lost the keys"), or "las llaves se perdieron" if somebody else lost them but I didn't want to accuse that person ("the keys got lost). Also, I never think of things doing actions "for me" but, instead, "on me". For example, if say "La planta que me diste se me ha muerto" ("the plant you gave me has died on me") I would not be implying that the plant "died for me", but only that the plant died while on my possession. P.S. Just in case, in real-life this is what I say: "¿Dónde están las putas llaves?"

paradoja 16y ago
I am a native Spanish speaker from the Canary Islands. It's is quite clear that the author is learning mainland Spain's Spanish, as he uses "patata" for potato, instead of "papa", which I believe is used everywhere else. There, those phrases are quite common ones to use for that situations.
- Mz 16y ago
  So perhaps it should be "In Spain, it's not your fault"?

PixelRobot 16y ago

I think the author is taking Spanish too literally here. Just because the literal translation doesn't imply blame or seems to take it away for an English speaker doesn't mean that Spanish speakers don't see it there. "Se han perdido las llaves" is not going to make you look less guilty than "I lost the keys" when used in context.

dawkins 16y ago

As a native Spanish speaker I never thought that I was expressing something different when talking in English. You would say "se me han perdido las llaves". The "me" implies that I am the one who lost them. Probably the thoughts are universal and we just express them in different ways.