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I spend a day or two every year cleaning up a beach on a island off the coast of China. Its location relative to local sea currents makes it a natural garbage t

I spend a day or two every year cleaning up a beach on a island off the coast of China. Its location relative to local sea currents makes it a natural garbage trap. It has been a radicalizing experience but maybe not in the way you would think. Anecdotally about a third of the trash I pick up is fishing related - some nets, some buoys, but mostly thousands of small plastic sardine sized fishing net floats. About a third is one-time use food packaging related - soda and water bottles mainly, but also so many bags for snacks, or tangentially cleaning bottles for hands/dishes. We could do better making less plastic waste with each meal. Straws are a very small part of that and a weird thing to fixate on relative to all the other one time use food waste we generate. And the last third is various forms of hydrocarbon foams. This last one kills me because I see foams everywhere in the supply chain for consumer goods. TVs are shipped out in white styrofoam. Chips are shipped in with pink styrofoam. If it’s fragile lab equipment it gets shipped in a box three times it’s size full of packing peanut foam. Every product in the room you are in probably generated an equivalent volume of foam during its production. The foam lasts forever. I refuse to use it for anything we package and glad to see it phased out. I would much prefer biodegradable paper like pulps to foam. As I understand the chemicals used to make hard paper bowls and straws may be their own kind of nasty endocrine disrupters but for all other packaging purposes, yes please. Less foam, more paper. Especially if some tweaks we can make packaging a carbon sink.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
specialist 7y ago
Paper is an amazing technology. Were I king, I'd massively fund R&D to bring new sources of fiber to market. Make them competitive with wood pulp. Hemp, bamboo, sugar cane, feed corn. Maybe even invasive (noxious) weeds like kudzu. Two birds, one stone. Extra credit for non till harvesting techniques. Just mow those hemp fields. Then do it all again in three months.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  I recently learned that many of the things we make out of plastic today were once made of paper. I don't mean bags and plates and stuff. I mean big things like tables, and reusable bowls, and snuff boxes. A lot of them can still be found in antique shops 150 years later.
- 8bitsrule 7y ago
  Wood-pulping can also be a filthy technology. Growing up in a paper-mill town meant smelling and breathing the particulate and gaseous effluents of the cooking process. In the spring, the remnants of this deluge covered all the melting snow-piles in a black sheet. (And lungs?) Much of what didn't come out of the stacks flowed out under the river's surface through a secret pipe. Downstream, the shores were matted and bubbling with discarded wastes. As for the hundreds of men who 'harvested' the trees ... laboring in the gulag wilderness, far from the cities where the paper for fiduciary reports, magazines, academic wisdom and signage is consumed ... most lived marginalized lives of quiet desperation. Even if they managed to make it to retirement with whole bodies.
  - specialist 7y ago
    You are correct. I infrequently do some light googling to see if anyone is seriously trying to use bamboo or hemp for paper and fabrics. This was the biggest hit last time. http://www.bamboopulp.com http://www.bamboopulp.com For future, I'll be mindful of the labor and ecological impacts of their processes. Thank you.
Tomminn 7y ago
The fishing gets me. I used to fish from the shoreline a lot, but when I went snorkeling in a couple of beautiful places in the world all the lost tackle and line just made me angry at my past self. It's very hard to fish from the shoreline without leaving trash everywhere. It's hard to think that every dollar I spent on tackle was a dollar I spent polluting the shoreline. It was out of sight, so it was out of mind. I remember this incredible natural aquarium, formed in a wide, deep circular depression of a coral reef. And a single 30m piece of neon line riiight through the middle of it. Doubtless, it was left by a fisherman who swore at losing another $2 sinker, with no concept of what else they'd just done.
- forgotmypw3 7y ago
  It's thinking like this that led me down the path of rejecting money/currency for the most part. Every dollar I spent is a vote for producing more of whatever I'm buying, directly correlated with habitat loss (for humans included) and animal deaths. And each transaction is like a curtain from behind which the finished product appears, handed to you with no information about its origin.
  - stekern 7y ago
    That's an interesting perspective. How does such an approach play out in practice?
    - Forbo 7y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeganism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeganism
    - forgotmypw3 7y ago
      The freeganism link in sibling comment provides a pretty good overview. In my case, I live outdoors more than half the time, sometimes couchsurfing. I obtain food primarily from waste. My electronics are hand-me-downs. For getting around, I ride with people going my way or walk. I am a careful driver, and sometimes I help drive as contribution. Sometimes I ride trains and buses, which cost minimal money. I pay a few hundred a year for domains and hosting. Occasionally, people offer me money. I used to not accept it, but now I just do my best to limit its use to the above. If I go to a coffee shop, I typically do not buy a coffee. If I sit at a fast food place, I don't buy anything. I do not feel that I owe anything to anyone just for occupying space. I do, however, place some properly logoed cups (reused) on my table, and I pick up any trash on the floors, and fix the chairs, and sometimes wipe the tables with abandoned napkins. It seems kind of silly sometimes, but it's a system that's working well for me now. I like to visit libraries, though hours are typically limited. It has taken me about 5 years to transition to this life from full-time job, apartment, and cat. I had previous camping experience, and a relatively low regard for social norms. I am a man, which obviously helps with safety. But women do it too. This practice has helped me develop my meditation practice, write more code I can be proud of, and travel without worry about where I'm going to stay when I get there. Because my past jobs contributed to selling soft drinks, securities, oil, etc., I think that my "environmental karma" is much better. I also have the time to stop and pick up the trash everywhere I go, a practice I find to be both enjoyable and great "natural" exercise.
barbs 7y ago
I seem to remember working for a pharmacy years ago and disposing of packing peanuts by putting them in the sink and dissolving them with hot water. Is that not a thing anymore?
- undersuit 7y ago
  Starch-based packing peanuts are will break down in water, unlike their polystyrene equivalents.
  - foobarian 7y ago
    Some packing peanuts are apparently made of puffed up rice. It's a fun trick to pull on coworkers who don't know this and eat a bunch when you get a package.
    - isthis1984 7y ago
      as long as they're not imported and have been sprayed with pesticide.
      - undersuit 7y ago
        Apparently the majority of the carbohydrates and nutrients have been removed too, probably not tasty without the pesticide zest.
undersuit 7y ago
>Straws are a very small part of that and a weird thing to fixate on relative to all the other one time use food waste we generate. Straws are completely superfluous. If you take away my straw I can continue drinking the beverage. Chips need a container, sure I'd prefer more bulk bins and recycled containers, but if we banned plastic containers for chips you interfere mightily in someone enjoying their product. ANYWAYS, the fixation is from the bad actors, the trouble makers, the noisemakers.
- rsj_hn 7y ago
  Most people's teeth are sensitive to cold. They like to use straws to be able skip the teeth while ingesting a cold beverage. This is why the straw was invented -- to make it easy to consume icy cold drinks. Very strange that this must be explained to people who think straws are completely superfluous. If they were superfluous, people wouldn't be using them. This is a great example of Chesterton's Fence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chesterton%27s_fence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chesterton%27s_fence Unfortunately this is a widespread problem that dominates environmental activism in privileged wealthy countries. I wouldn't necessarily call the Straw Banners "Bad Actors" or "Trouble Makers", just foolish people. You have people venturing into areas they know nothing about and suddenly start trying to ban things before even understanding what the issues are. Serious people know that reducing plastic use or the production of plastics is not the issue, but having secure disposal systems is how you keep garbage out of the ocean. Moreover, the problem is almost entirely in the third world where secure disposal systems don't exist. Nothing that you do or don't consume here is going to make a difference in terms of what ends up in the ocean.
  - undersuit 7y ago
    You roll your lower lip over your bottom front teeth, bring the container to your mouth, and pour the liquid into your mouth while gently resting the lip of the container on your lip.
    - s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
      Girls need straws for lipstick, guys need straws for beards, elderly need straws for health concerns. They aren't "completely superfluous".
cpeterso 7y ago
My local recycling center (in the SF Bay Area) accepts styrofoam blocks (though the machine is down right now). Unfortunately, storing and transporting bulky styrofoam is cumbersome for individuals, so it's not very scalable. https://www.el-cerrito.org/952/Drop-Off-Materials-Accepted https://www.el-cerrito.org/952/Drop-Off-Materials-Accepted
- brok3nmachine 7y ago
  "Fees apply for customers from outside El Cerrito" I wonder why? Sounds like it's impractical to recycle.
  - baud147258 7y ago
    "Fees apply for customers from outside El Cerrito" Maybe it's funded by the city, so it would be free for people there, since they've already paid for with their taxes?
- rasz 7y ago
  acetone will melt huge polystyrene foam block into a small puddle
BurningFrog 7y ago
> Straws are a very small part of that and a weird thing to fixate on relative to all the other one time use food waste we generate. People always fixate on things they personally touch and see, over things that are out of sight even if they're thousand or million times bigger factors. Thus all the frenzy around straws, shopping bags, coffee mugs etc.
mraudiobook_com 7y ago
Sorry. I did a stint in the US Navy, stationed on a Japanese boat for 6 months out of the year. We threw out trash overboard once a week at the furthest from land part of our patrol. I have pictures of our trash trailing into the distance. We were supposed to only dump biodegradable but also, who wants to keep rotting plastic food wrappers onboard for months at a time?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

specialist 7y ago

Paper is an amazing technology. Were I king, I'd massively fund R&D to bring new sources of fiber to market. Make them competitive with wood pulp. Hemp, bamboo, sugar cane, feed corn. Maybe even invasive (noxious) weeds like kudzu. Two birds, one stone. Extra credit for non till harvesting techniques. Just mow those hemp fields. Then do it all again in three months.

reaperducer 7y ago
I recently learned that many of the things we make out of plastic today were once made of paper. I don't mean bags and plates and stuff. I mean big things like tables, and reusable bowls, and snuff boxes. A lot of them can still be found in antique shops 150 years later.
8bitsrule 7y ago
Wood-pulping can also be a filthy technology. Growing up in a paper-mill town meant smelling and breathing the particulate and gaseous effluents of the cooking process. In the spring, the remnants of this deluge covered all the melting snow-piles in a black sheet. (And lungs?) Much of what didn't come out of the stacks flowed out under the river's surface through a secret pipe. Downstream, the shores were matted and bubbling with discarded wastes. As for the hundreds of men who 'harvested' the trees ... laboring in the gulag wilderness, far from the cities where the paper for fiduciary reports, magazines, academic wisdom and signage is consumed ... most lived marginalized lives of quiet desperation. Even if they managed to make it to retirement with whole bodies.
- specialist 7y ago
  You are correct. I infrequently do some light googling to see if anyone is seriously trying to use bamboo or hemp for paper and fabrics. This was the biggest hit last time. http://www.bamboopulp.com http://www.bamboopulp.com For future, I'll be mindful of the labor and ecological impacts of their processes. Thank you.

Tomminn 7y ago

The fishing gets me. I used to fish from the shoreline a lot, but when I went snorkeling in a couple of beautiful places in the world all the lost tackle and line just made me angry at my past self. It's very hard to fish from the shoreline without leaving trash everywhere. It's hard to think that every dollar I spent on tackle was a dollar I spent polluting the shoreline. It was out of sight, so it was out of mind. I remember this incredible natural aquarium, formed in a wide, deep circular depression of a coral reef. And a single 30m piece of neon line riiight through the middle of it. Doubtless, it was left by a fisherman who swore at losing another $2 sinker, with no concept of what else they'd just done.

forgotmypw3 7y ago
It's thinking like this that led me down the path of rejecting money/currency for the most part. Every dollar I spent is a vote for producing more of whatever I'm buying, directly correlated with habitat loss (for humans included) and animal deaths. And each transaction is like a curtain from behind which the finished product appears, handed to you with no information about its origin.
- stekern 7y ago
  That's an interesting perspective. How does such an approach play out in practice?
  - Forbo 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeganism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeganism
  - forgotmypw3 7y ago
    The freeganism link in sibling comment provides a pretty good overview. In my case, I live outdoors more than half the time, sometimes couchsurfing. I obtain food primarily from waste. My electronics are hand-me-downs. For getting around, I ride with people going my way or walk. I am a careful driver, and sometimes I help drive as contribution. Sometimes I ride trains and buses, which cost minimal money. I pay a few hundred a year for domains and hosting. Occasionally, people offer me money. I used to not accept it, but now I just do my best to limit its use to the above. If I go to a coffee shop, I typically do not buy a coffee. If I sit at a fast food place, I don't buy anything. I do not feel that I owe anything to anyone just for occupying space. I do, however, place some properly logoed cups (reused) on my table, and I pick up any trash on the floors, and fix the chairs, and sometimes wipe the tables with abandoned napkins. It seems kind of silly sometimes, but it's a system that's working well for me now. I like to visit libraries, though hours are typically limited. It has taken me about 5 years to transition to this life from full-time job, apartment, and cat. I had previous camping experience, and a relatively low regard for social norms. I am a man, which obviously helps with safety. But women do it too. This practice has helped me develop my meditation practice, write more code I can be proud of, and travel without worry about where I'm going to stay when I get there. Because my past jobs contributed to selling soft drinks, securities, oil, etc., I think that my "environmental karma" is much better. I also have the time to stop and pick up the trash everywhere I go, a practice I find to be both enjoyable and great "natural" exercise.

barbs 7y ago

I seem to remember working for a pharmacy years ago and disposing of packing peanuts by putting them in the sink and dissolving them with hot water. Is that not a thing anymore?

undersuit 7y ago
Starch-based packing peanuts are will break down in water, unlike their polystyrene equivalents.
- foobarian 7y ago
  Some packing peanuts are apparently made of puffed up rice. It's a fun trick to pull on coworkers who don't know this and eat a bunch when you get a package.
  - isthis1984 7y ago
    as long as they're not imported and have been sprayed with pesticide.
    - undersuit 7y ago
      Apparently the majority of the carbohydrates and nutrients have been removed too, probably not tasty without the pesticide zest.

undersuit 7y ago

>Straws are a very small part of that and a weird thing to fixate on relative to all the other one time use food waste we generate. Straws are completely superfluous. If you take away my straw I can continue drinking the beverage. Chips need a container, sure I'd prefer more bulk bins and recycled containers, but if we banned plastic containers for chips you interfere mightily in someone enjoying their product. ANYWAYS, the fixation is from the bad actors, the trouble makers, the noisemakers.

rsj_hn 7y ago
Most people's teeth are sensitive to cold. They like to use straws to be able skip the teeth while ingesting a cold beverage. This is why the straw was invented -- to make it easy to consume icy cold drinks. Very strange that this must be explained to people who think straws are completely superfluous. If they were superfluous, people wouldn't be using them. This is a great example of Chesterton's Fence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chesterton%27s_fence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chesterton%27s_fence Unfortunately this is a widespread problem that dominates environmental activism in privileged wealthy countries. I wouldn't necessarily call the Straw Banners "Bad Actors" or "Trouble Makers", just foolish people. You have people venturing into areas they know nothing about and suddenly start trying to ban things before even understanding what the issues are. Serious people know that reducing plastic use or the production of plastics is not the issue, but having secure disposal systems is how you keep garbage out of the ocean. Moreover, the problem is almost entirely in the third world where secure disposal systems don't exist. Nothing that you do or don't consume here is going to make a difference in terms of what ends up in the ocean.
- undersuit 7y ago
  You roll your lower lip over your bottom front teeth, bring the container to your mouth, and pour the liquid into your mouth while gently resting the lip of the container on your lip.
  - s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
    Girls need straws for lipstick, guys need straws for beards, elderly need straws for health concerns. They aren't "completely superfluous".

cpeterso 7y ago

My local recycling center (in the SF Bay Area) accepts styrofoam blocks (though the machine is down right now). Unfortunately, storing and transporting bulky styrofoam is cumbersome for individuals, so it's not very scalable. https://www.el-cerrito.org/952/Drop-Off-Materials-Accepted https://www.el-cerrito.org/952/Drop-Off-Materials-Accepted

brok3nmachine 7y ago
"Fees apply for customers from outside El Cerrito" I wonder why? Sounds like it's impractical to recycle.
- baud147258 7y ago
  "Fees apply for customers from outside El Cerrito" Maybe it's funded by the city, so it would be free for people there, since they've already paid for with their taxes?
rasz 7y ago
acetone will melt huge polystyrene foam block into a small puddle

BurningFrog 7y ago

> Straws are a very small part of that and a weird thing to fixate on relative to all the other one time use food waste we generate. People always fixate on things they personally touch and see, over things that are out of sight even if they're thousand or million times bigger factors. Thus all the frenzy around straws, shopping bags, coffee mugs etc.

mraudiobook_com 7y ago

Sorry. I did a stint in the US Navy, stationed on a Japanese boat for 6 months out of the year. We threw out trash overboard once a week at the furthest from land part of our patrol. I have pictures of our trash trailing into the distance. We were supposed to only dump biodegradable but also, who wants to keep rotting plastic food wrappers onboard for months at a time?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]