5 ms·

It's now been almost 30 years. Isn't that enough time to be able to revert the damage and develop prosperity?

by dsego 7y ago

mieseratte 7y ago
Even in prosperous Germany, the formerly communist East is well behind the capitalist West. One would assume for a nation with less means the problems would be more pronounced.
- mschuster91 7y ago
  > Even in prosperous Germany, the formerly communist East is well behind the capitalist West. That's "thanks" to the Treuhand scandal. West Germany essentially bled East Germany dry - brains, infrastructure, everything. East Germany perfectly shows what happens when all young people who can flee - the only ones remaining will be conservatives and outright Nazis.
  - mieseratte 7y ago
    Yes, which bears remarkable resemblance to the Bulgarian situation such that 30 years isn't going to allow for anyone to recover. And if you believe the Treuhand situation is the start and end of East German problems you are being overly reductionist, Herr Antifa.
    - dang 7y ago
      No name-calling or political flamebait in HN comments, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
The prosperous countries that de-industrialised in the early 80s still have regions that are suffering the after effects. Often still have lack of opportunity, unemployment and poverty far in excess of the national average. Which discourages new businesses locating in the region, which perpetuates... The former Soviet bloc countries were starting from near bankruptcy, and extreme neglect over a far longer period. They may have developed pockets of wealth, maybe much more development in the capital. The picture across the whole country will be much more mixed. Without focused development spending and redistribution, training, encouraging business etc, it takes generations to play out.
Tade0 7y ago
If Poland can serve as an example it's enough to become enamoured and then disillusioned by neoliberalism at least. Prosperity is definitely there, but so is inequality, which appears to go hand in hand with capitalism. We're still at least a generation behind the west, but throughout the years some western economies slowed down so much that in say, 20 years, we may be considered a "poor first-world country" like Greece, Portugal, Italy.
StavrosK 7y ago
Not by a long shot. The problem is that the poverty and corruption that the destabilization creates pervades the entire culture, and it's very hard to move away from that especially when everyone who hates corruption just emigrates away. We have the same problems in Greece (though probably not to that degree). Everything is slow, inefficient, there's lots of corruption and everyone is looking out for themselves because nobody else will look out for them, and anyone who hates this culture just leaves. This makes it extremely hard to change anything, and things improve at glacial rates.
- tyri_kai_psomi 7y ago
  Who in the hell actually hates Greek culture? It's the best part about Greece! No re malaka, we just leave for the money and jobs, but we would all come back if we could have the same economic opportunity and environment. A true Greek loves their country and hurts to see what it has become, and would do anything to see it prosper, even with all the bad, Greeks have been able to consistently maintain the separation between its people and the corruption that is in power.
  - StavrosK 7y ago
    You don't? You like people not giving a shit and parking in disabled spots/ramps, double-parking everywhere, civil services closing at noon because they have "work to do", employers paying employees starvation wages because it saves them a euro, everyone evading taxes because their pocket is more important than schools and hospitals, contractors padding their invoices by 200% to pocket the money from EU investments, etc etc? I'll venture a guess and say you've never lived abroad? > A true Greek How do you even type that without expecting to be linked to Wikipedia?
    - tyri_kai_psomi 7y ago
      > You don't? You like people not giving a shit and parking in disabled spots/ramps, double-parking everywhere, civil services closing at noon because they have "work to do", employers paying employees starvation wages because it saves them a euro, everyone evading taxes because their pocket is more important than schools and hospitals, contractors padding their invoices by 200% to pocket the money from EU investments, etc etc? So basically just like everywhere else in the world. You ever been to a Walmart parking lot? Or a DMV? Sounds like maybe you are the one who has never lived anywhere else. This is called fallen human nature, and it is everywhere.

It's now been almost 30 years. Isn't that enough time to be able to revert the damage and develop prosperity?

by dsego 7y ago

It's now been almost 30 years. Isn't that enough time to be able to revert the damage and develop prosperity?

Even in prosperous Germany, the formerly communist East is well behind the capitalist West. One would assume for a nation with less means the problems would be more pronounced.

mschuster91 7y ago
> Even in prosperous Germany, the formerly communist East is well behind the capitalist West. That's "thanks" to the Treuhand scandal. West Germany essentially bled East Germany dry - brains, infrastructure, everything. East Germany perfectly shows what happens when all young people who can flee - the only ones remaining will be conservatives and outright Nazis.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  Yes, which bears remarkable resemblance to the Bulgarian situation such that 30 years isn't going to allow for anyone to recover. And if you believe the Treuhand situation is the start and end of East German problems you are being overly reductionist, Herr Antifa.
  - dang 7y ago
    No name-calling or political flamebait in HN comments, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

NeedMoreTea 7y ago

The prosperous countries that de-industrialised in the early 80s still have regions that are suffering the after effects. Often still have lack of opportunity, unemployment and poverty far in excess of the national average. Which discourages new businesses locating in the region, which perpetuates... The former Soviet bloc countries were starting from near bankruptcy, and extreme neglect over a far longer period. They may have developed pockets of wealth, maybe much more development in the capital. The picture across the whole country will be much more mixed. Without focused development spending and redistribution, training, encouraging business etc, it takes generations to play out.

Tade0 7y ago

If Poland can serve as an example it's enough to become enamoured and then disillusioned by neoliberalism at least. Prosperity is definitely there, but so is inequality, which appears to go hand in hand with capitalism. We're still at least a generation behind the west, but throughout the years some western economies slowed down so much that in say, 20 years, we may be considered a "poor first-world country" like Greece, Portugal, Italy.

StavrosK 7y ago

Not by a long shot. The problem is that the poverty and corruption that the destabilization creates pervades the entire culture, and it's very hard to move away from that especially when everyone who hates corruption just emigrates away. We have the same problems in Greece (though probably not to that degree). Everything is slow, inefficient, there's lots of corruption and everyone is looking out for themselves because nobody else will look out for them, and anyone who hates this culture just leaves. This makes it extremely hard to change anything, and things improve at glacial rates.

tyri_kai_psomi 7y ago
Who in the hell actually hates Greek culture? It's the best part about Greece! No re malaka, we just leave for the money and jobs, but we would all come back if we could have the same economic opportunity and environment. A true Greek loves their country and hurts to see what it has become, and would do anything to see it prosper, even with all the bad, Greeks have been able to consistently maintain the separation between its people and the corruption that is in power.
- StavrosK 7y ago
  You don't? You like people not giving a shit and parking in disabled spots/ramps, double-parking everywhere, civil services closing at noon because they have "work to do", employers paying employees starvation wages because it saves them a euro, everyone evading taxes because their pocket is more important than schools and hospitals, contractors padding their invoices by 200% to pocket the money from EU investments, etc etc? I'll venture a guess and say you've never lived abroad? > A true Greek How do you even type that without expecting to be linked to Wikipedia?
  - tyri_kai_psomi 7y ago
    > You don't? You like people not giving a shit and parking in disabled spots/ramps, double-parking everywhere, civil services closing at noon because they have "work to do", employers paying employees starvation wages because it saves them a euro, everyone evading taxes because their pocket is more important than schools and hospitals, contractors padding their invoices by 200% to pocket the money from EU investments, etc etc? So basically just like everywhere else in the world. You ever been to a Walmart parking lot? Or a DMV? Sounds like maybe you are the one who has never lived anywhere else. This is called fallen human nature, and it is everywhere.