4 ms·

Well it's gone full circle now, as Starbucks (and a lot of other chains) use machines to make the espresso part of the drink at the touch of a button. The barr

by fyfy18 7y ago

Well it's gone full circle now, as Starbucks (and a lot of other chains) use machines to make the espresso part of the drink at the touch of a button. The barrister is still responsible for steaming milk, but I only assume that is because the sounds and smells of that are what make the coffee shop atmosphere.

cpuguy83 7y ago
There's a fair amount of skill involved in pulling a good espresso shot.
- valarauko 7y ago
  Fair enough, though a well adjusted Super-Automatic Espresso machine can reliably and reproducibly get you 90% of the way there hundreds of times a day. The majority of customers wouldn't be able to distinguish that last 10% anyway. Have a barista on hand to adjust the Super-Automatic daily, to account for changing bean freshness, and you're pretty much good to go.
  - cpuguy83 7y ago
    What about variance in tastes of customers or even variance in bean itself (beyond age).
    - valarauko 7y ago
      How can a barista accomodate the variance in taste of a customer when pulling an espresso shot? The barista can dial in the pressure profiling, how long to pull the shot, and the grind size. For a given batch of beans, based on the type, level of roast, and age, there likely exists a sweet spot for those parameters that most baristas would agree upon. My understanding is that this is what baristas do anyway - adjust the machine for the beans available today, and then just crank them out all day long. A super automatic (or future versions) that's dialed in daily could achieve pretty much the same thing. AFAIK, the barista will try to pull the best espresso out of the beans that they have. I'm not sure variance in customer tastes can be accomadated at this level, beyond a ristretto or an americano.
- m0xte 7y ago
  There is which is why I’m finding that the Costa machines here in the UK are consistently better than the humans are.
  - stinos 7y ago
    I never had a coffee from a Costa machine, but purely from the looks of it, and my experience with similar looking machines, I wonder: does this really produce espresso (as in say 16grams of fresh ground beans in, water at proper temperature and pressure of like 6 or more bars, yielding something like 32grams of beverage) or rather something which can best be described as 'strong coffee'?
    - Plyphon_ 7y ago
      Your metrics for an espresso seem incredibly trivial for a machine to exactly reproduce, yet wildly open to human error and deviance.
      - stinos 7y ago
        Yes that's pretty much spot on. Making espresso with a manual lever machine isn't too hard too mess up, especially not in comparison with pressing one button or filter coffee. Yet it's apparently not that trivial to make such a machine, and keeping it working for hundreds of cups a day: prices of those are easily well over 10k$.
      - cpuguy83 7y ago
        Sure but espresso varies, change the bean even the age of the bean and the recipe needs to adjust. Not to mention not everyone wants the same experience every single time, and not every person wants the same exact espresso that the last person had.
    - m0xte 7y ago
      Good question. I’m not sure I care if I’m honest. It tastes pretty good and keeps me alive :)
apatters 7y ago
Starbucks is selling an experience and it's central to this experience that there be a human putting a little TLC into what happens, whether it's a friendly greeting, a product recommendation, remembering your name and writing it on the cup, etc. The key is literally for there to be a human involved, because we get emotional satisfaction from a positive interaction with other humans. There's nothing new in this discussion -- we've been automating away manual labor since the Industrial Revolution. We end up creating these human touch jobs with the resulting productivity gains (this is the transition from a manufacturing economy to a service economy, the value isn't in the muscle anymore, it's in the relationship). In fact, thanks in no small part to capitalism's ruthless efficiency, loneliness and isolation are at record highs. The demand for a little TLC has never been higher. We'll have fewer pizza makers but more people whose job is essentially to make you feel good.
noneeeed 7y ago
From my experiences with coffee machines that produce cappacinos, the act of frothing milk seems to be one of those tasks that is much more difficult to automate than I would have thought. I've had a few that were passable, but none that are remotely as good as a decent human made one. The actual coffee on the other hand seems to be easeir to automate.

by fyfy18 7y ago

cpuguy83 7y ago

There's a fair amount of skill involved in pulling a good espresso shot.

valarauko 7y ago
Fair enough, though a well adjusted Super-Automatic Espresso machine can reliably and reproducibly get you 90% of the way there hundreds of times a day. The majority of customers wouldn't be able to distinguish that last 10% anyway. Have a barista on hand to adjust the Super-Automatic daily, to account for changing bean freshness, and you're pretty much good to go.
- cpuguy83 7y ago
  What about variance in tastes of customers or even variance in bean itself (beyond age).
  - valarauko 7y ago
    How can a barista accomodate the variance in taste of a customer when pulling an espresso shot? The barista can dial in the pressure profiling, how long to pull the shot, and the grind size. For a given batch of beans, based on the type, level of roast, and age, there likely exists a sweet spot for those parameters that most baristas would agree upon. My understanding is that this is what baristas do anyway - adjust the machine for the beans available today, and then just crank them out all day long. A super automatic (or future versions) that's dialed in daily could achieve pretty much the same thing. AFAIK, the barista will try to pull the best espresso out of the beans that they have. I'm not sure variance in customer tastes can be accomadated at this level, beyond a ristretto or an americano.
m0xte 7y ago
There is which is why I’m finding that the Costa machines here in the UK are consistently better than the humans are.
- stinos 7y ago
  I never had a coffee from a Costa machine, but purely from the looks of it, and my experience with similar looking machines, I wonder: does this really produce espresso (as in say 16grams of fresh ground beans in, water at proper temperature and pressure of like 6 or more bars, yielding something like 32grams of beverage) or rather something which can best be described as 'strong coffee'?
  - Plyphon_ 7y ago
    Your metrics for an espresso seem incredibly trivial for a machine to exactly reproduce, yet wildly open to human error and deviance.
    - stinos 7y ago
      Yes that's pretty much spot on. Making espresso with a manual lever machine isn't too hard too mess up, especially not in comparison with pressing one button or filter coffee. Yet it's apparently not that trivial to make such a machine, and keeping it working for hundreds of cups a day: prices of those are easily well over 10k$.
    - cpuguy83 7y ago
      Sure but espresso varies, change the bean even the age of the bean and the recipe needs to adjust. Not to mention not everyone wants the same experience every single time, and not every person wants the same exact espresso that the last person had.
  - m0xte 7y ago
    Good question. I’m not sure I care if I’m honest. It tastes pretty good and keeps me alive :)

apatters 7y ago

Starbucks is selling an experience and it's central to this experience that there be a human putting a little TLC into what happens, whether it's a friendly greeting, a product recommendation, remembering your name and writing it on the cup, etc. The key is literally for there to be a human involved, because we get emotional satisfaction from a positive interaction with other humans. There's nothing new in this discussion -- we've been automating away manual labor since the Industrial Revolution. We end up creating these human touch jobs with the resulting productivity gains (this is the transition from a manufacturing economy to a service economy, the value isn't in the muscle anymore, it's in the relationship). In fact, thanks in no small part to capitalism's ruthless efficiency, loneliness and isolation are at record highs. The demand for a little TLC has never been higher. We'll have fewer pizza makers but more people whose job is essentially to make you feel good.

noneeeed 7y ago

From my experiences with coffee machines that produce cappacinos, the act of frothing milk seems to be one of those tasks that is much more difficult to automate than I would have thought. I've had a few that were passable, but none that are remotely as good as a decent human made one. The actual coffee on the other hand seems to be easeir to automate.