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Going on kind of a tangent here, but a thought has been creeping up on me that I can't wait to talk about: I'm a major Apple fan, with several Apple devices th

Going on kind of a tangent here, but a thought has been creeping up on me that I can't wait to talk about: I'm a major Apple fan, with several Apple devices that I use all the time, and while they have a strong pro-privacy stance for now (though we only have their word), Apple's ability to spy on me, should they ever want to, probably goes far beyond any other company. Besides the usual "boring" methods like keylogging and microphone eavesdropping, which any company can do to the users of their OSes if they wanted to, the iPhone sees my face a hundred times a day, the Mac has my fingerprints, and the Watch knows how I'm moving and feeling (sitting, walking, excited, lethargic), and they can use that to infer what I'm doing or even about to do... Has anyone thoroughly monitored and logged what these devices are sending out?

antipaul 7y ago
The risk is too high for them to fuck up, IMHO. If someone found nefarious stuff after throughly logging and monitoring these devices, and their findings were made public, I think this would be too huge for a company which differentiates itself via their privacy stance
- ctchocula 7y ago
  I would contend that only a small subset of Apple's customers care about privacy, who are usually those working in tech. For most Apple fanboys, I'd say it's the aesthetic appeal, "cool" factor and conspicuous consumption that drives them to buy Apple. Even if someone found nefarious stuff, it would be in the media for one week and hardly anyone would notice.
  - oarsinsync 7y ago
    The lawsuits would last a fair bit longer, and result in longer reporting.
  - Razengan 7y ago
    If you have been following tech news in the last 20 years, you'll know that ANY time Apple slips up in ANY way the world never seems to forgets it. Samsung, for example, could literally nuke a small country into oblivion and it would be forgotten within a month, whereas even post-apocalypse humans will begrudge Apple's removal of the headphone jack.
m463 7y ago
The problem is that they deal themselves into the equation too much. You can turn off bluetooth, but if you turn it on to talk to your headphones or car, you get opted-in to ibeacon location services. You can turn off wifi, but if you turn it on to talk to your home router, yeah, more location services opt-in. If you follow links in email or safari, with deep links apps on your phone that have registered can intercept them. there's no opt-out of this added functionality. You text a link to someone, you also load a preview in imessage and therefore contact the site. It's like normal functionality have all these built-in compromises you can't turn off. Now with the UWB stuff, there isn't even an off switch. I think their standard way of dealing with things is that they just shut up and don't advertise this stuff.
- machello13 7y ago
  > You can turn off bluetooth, but if you turn it on to talk to your headphones or car, you get opted-in to ibeacon location services. > You can turn off wifi, but if you turn it on to talk to your home router, yeah, more location services opt-in. Are these true? Bluetooth iBeacons, from what I understand, are now restricted by each app's Bluetooth access in iOS 13. And for Wifi, can't you just disable location services in Privacy settings?
andrepd 7y ago
>while they have a strong pro-privacy stance for now (though we only have their word) So you have nothing. Nothing concrete at all. You have a black box on your hands, running whatever code Apple desires, effectively an infinite-privilege backdoor, with acessos to loads of data, with no possibility of scrutiny or verifiable privacy. Oh but you have their word. Come on...
- Vinnl 7y ago
  As long as they're making it a selling point and a marketing message, they have incentive to stick to their word.
  - andrepd 7y ago
    You're either the most naive person in the world or you are wilfully looking the other way. Let's just say that corporations don't have the best track record in the world when it comes to being honest and upfront...
    - oarsinsync 7y ago
      This is true, and the future direction of the corporation may change. However in the present, given the numerous public statements about their pro-privacy stance, if it turned out to all be a giant fabrication and they were actually data mining in the same way Google does (which Google publicly states), I'm reasonably sure that would be (at the very least) securities fraud.
    - Vinnl 7y ago
      Well, either their belief that privacy attracts customers is wrong (i.e. they shouldn't be using that as marketing), or their customers will leave if privacy violations are exposed. I don't have reason to believe I have a better idea of what gets Apple customers than Apple itself, so...
puranjay 7y ago
I would suggest taking off the watch before starting a revolution or committing a crime.
- nixpulvis 7y ago
  What if taking off the watch is a crime. Think I'm crazy... imagine the watch being confused, and calling 911 repeatedly. Best to destroy it, or at least kill its life somehow.
  - dmix 7y ago
    Who needs mandatory surveillance when everyone just buys it anyway? Being explicit about it only makes it easier and more cost effective.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    Put it in a Faraday bag. Anyone asks, say that you accidentally put it in your chainmail jeans.
    - puranjay 7y ago
      I wonder if there is a market for a portable Faraday cage
      - mirimir 7y ago
        You could make a burqa using conductive fabric. Silk, cotton, or nylon. Either plated with silver, or woven with fine silver wire. I don't find that online, but close: https://emfclothing.com/en/home/10-electromagnetic-protective-head-net.html https://emfclothing.com/en/home/10-electromagnetic-protectiv... https://www.beneficialenvironments.co.uk/product/sleeping-bags/ https://www.beneficialenvironments.co.uk/product/sleeping-ba...

antipaul 7y ago

The risk is too high for them to fuck up, IMHO. If someone found nefarious stuff after throughly logging and monitoring these devices, and their findings were made public, I think this would be too huge for a company which differentiates itself via their privacy stance

ctchocula 7y ago
I would contend that only a small subset of Apple's customers care about privacy, who are usually those working in tech. For most Apple fanboys, I'd say it's the aesthetic appeal, "cool" factor and conspicuous consumption that drives them to buy Apple. Even if someone found nefarious stuff, it would be in the media for one week and hardly anyone would notice.
- oarsinsync 7y ago
  The lawsuits would last a fair bit longer, and result in longer reporting.
- Razengan 7y ago
  If you have been following tech news in the last 20 years, you'll know that ANY time Apple slips up in ANY way the world never seems to forgets it. Samsung, for example, could literally nuke a small country into oblivion and it would be forgotten within a month, whereas even post-apocalypse humans will begrudge Apple's removal of the headphone jack.

m463 7y ago

The problem is that they deal themselves into the equation too much. You can turn off bluetooth, but if you turn it on to talk to your headphones or car, you get opted-in to ibeacon location services. You can turn off wifi, but if you turn it on to talk to your home router, yeah, more location services opt-in. If you follow links in email or safari, with deep links apps on your phone that have registered can intercept them. there's no opt-out of this added functionality. You text a link to someone, you also load a preview in imessage and therefore contact the site. It's like normal functionality have all these built-in compromises you can't turn off. Now with the UWB stuff, there isn't even an off switch. I think their standard way of dealing with things is that they just shut up and don't advertise this stuff.

machello13 7y ago
> You can turn off bluetooth, but if you turn it on to talk to your headphones or car, you get opted-in to ibeacon location services. > You can turn off wifi, but if you turn it on to talk to your home router, yeah, more location services opt-in. Are these true? Bluetooth iBeacons, from what I understand, are now restricted by each app's Bluetooth access in iOS 13. And for Wifi, can't you just disable location services in Privacy settings?

andrepd 7y ago

>while they have a strong pro-privacy stance for now (though we only have their word) So you have nothing. Nothing concrete at all. You have a black box on your hands, running whatever code Apple desires, effectively an infinite-privilege backdoor, with acessos to loads of data, with no possibility of scrutiny or verifiable privacy. Oh but you have their word. Come on...

Vinnl 7y ago
As long as they're making it a selling point and a marketing message, they have incentive to stick to their word.
- andrepd 7y ago
  You're either the most naive person in the world or you are wilfully looking the other way. Let's just say that corporations don't have the best track record in the world when it comes to being honest and upfront...
  - oarsinsync 7y ago
    This is true, and the future direction of the corporation may change. However in the present, given the numerous public statements about their pro-privacy stance, if it turned out to all be a giant fabrication and they were actually data mining in the same way Google does (which Google publicly states), I'm reasonably sure that would be (at the very least) securities fraud.
  - Vinnl 7y ago
    Well, either their belief that privacy attracts customers is wrong (i.e. they shouldn't be using that as marketing), or their customers will leave if privacy violations are exposed. I don't have reason to believe I have a better idea of what gets Apple customers than Apple itself, so...

puranjay 7y ago

I would suggest taking off the watch before starting a revolution or committing a crime.

nixpulvis 7y ago
What if taking off the watch is a crime. Think I'm crazy... imagine the watch being confused, and calling 911 repeatedly. Best to destroy it, or at least kill its life somehow.
- dmix 7y ago
  Who needs mandatory surveillance when everyone just buys it anyway? Being explicit about it only makes it easier and more cost effective.
- mirimir 7y ago
  Put it in a Faraday bag. Anyone asks, say that you accidentally put it in your chainmail jeans.
  - puranjay 7y ago
    I wonder if there is a market for a portable Faraday cage
    - mirimir 7y ago
      You could make a burqa using conductive fabric. Silk, cotton, or nylon. Either plated with silver, or woven with fine silver wire. I don't find that online, but close: https://emfclothing.com/en/home/10-electromagnetic-protective-head-net.html https://emfclothing.com/en/home/10-electromagnetic-protectiv... https://www.beneficialenvironments.co.uk/product/sleeping-bags/ https://www.beneficialenvironments.co.uk/product/sleeping-ba...