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FWIW, I'm a white person who used to think of affirmative action as unfair discrimination. That was true until I spent time volunteering teaching technical skil

FWIW, I'm a white person who used to think of affirmative action as unfair discrimination. That was true until I spent time volunteering teaching technical skills to kids in poor immigrant neighborhoods. Now that I have had an up close experience with these communities, I'm here to tell you institutional racism is real and we're far from it making sense to end these programs. There simply is not a quick easy solution and those who are not oppressed simply have no real frame of reference to understand the problem. I encourage every person who feels these programs are unfair to spend time volunteering in poor minority communities.

packet881 7y ago
Feel free to make your voice heard by your vote and donate from your paycheck. This is a zero sum game and my ancestors were not oppressing either latinos or Africans. I'll make my voice heard by not voting for Democrats.
- wavefunction 7y ago
  This Judge was confirmed by the Senate which has been in Republican hands for some time. You should go start your own Harvard and you can exclude or admit anyone you want.
  - koolba 7y ago
    > This Judge was confirmed by the Senate which has been in Republican hands for some time. The judge was appointed by President Obama and confirmed by a Democrat controlled Senate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_Dale_Burroughs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_Dale_Burroughs Federal judgeships are lifetime appointments so the current makeup of the Senate, short of impeaching her, has no relevance.
- shadowgovt 7y ago
  Education is not a zero-sum game.
  - WillPostForFood 7y ago
    College admissions are zero-sum
    - shadowgovt 7y ago
      Not if we keep building colleges, no.
      - legostormtroopr 7y ago
        Except there is only one Harvard University. You could spend billions making a new University next door that has just as high standard of teachers and facilities, but it wouldn't be Harvard. Not that being "Harvard" would make it better, but to a lot of people the prestige of the name is important. So to that effect, it is a zero sum game.
        shadowgovt 7y ago
        Does Harvard maintain that lauded reputation if it's known to admit a racial monoculture? Especially in, say, the technology fields, where we've seen the negative impact of such monoculture in the quality of software developed using machine learning algorithms?
        paggle 7y ago
        All of the biggest software companies have almost no black engineers and relatively few female engineers. They still manage to make money hand over fist, looks like their software is good enough to do the job.
        shadowgovt 7y ago
        So you're satisfied with "makes money, but has known biases against people's inborn traits." In general, we is a society (in America at least) have decided that's not good enough. It hasn't been good enough since the time there was one facility for the whites and one facility for the coloreds.
- kemiller 7y ago
  If you are an American citizen or resident then you benefit from the system that did oppress them. It’s not about your personal ancestors.
- mlevental 7y ago
  > my ancestors were not oppressing either latinos or Africans. I'll make my voice heard by not voting for Democrats. so I guess you're making up for lost time? or setting the precedent for your own progeny? because I'm like 100% sure that during the era of slavery the same arguments were made by slavers - "my ancestors didn't participate in the crusades so I'm morally absolved..."
jrs235 7y ago
I'm like you. White and use to think the same. Love him or hate him, the last chapter, A Jamaican Story, in Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers really pierced my heart. I can't fathom what it must be like. I think those that despise affirmative action take things personally. They are right, sometimes it's not fair since they busted their butt, paid their dues, etc but lose out possibly because the color of their skin. It sucks and I'm sorry.
JPKab 7y ago
Do you think the kids in poor immigrant neighborhoods are in worse positions than poor kids in eastern Kentucky? Because the current policies treat white kids from trailer parks like white kids from fancy suburbs. And they treat FOB Asians like they are doctor's children. And black kids from fancy suburbs are treated as if they came from poor ghettos. The idea that "oppression" is limited to dimensions of race and gender, rather than ethnic/economic/geographic/etc is as juvenile as it is political useful. You have had up close experience with one kind of disadvantaged community, and act as if that is the only group that has it. The difference between urban communities and places like Clay County, Kentucky is that volunteers like you won't ever get sent to Kentucky.
- richmunk567 7y ago
  >they treat FOB Asians like they are doctor's children Diversity measures not withstanding, universities try to admit the students most likely to go on to have the most success in adult life and for Asians adolescent academic performance is a worse predictor of this than for Europeans. https://www.unz.com/article/why-harvard-is-right-to-discriminate-against-asians/ https://www.unz.com/article/why-harvard-is-right-to-discrimi...
  - shard972 7y ago
    Um, are you claiming that asians are biologically smarter than all other races? How... Racist?
  - tamizhar 7y ago
    > Asians adolescent academic performance is a worse predictor of this than for Europeans. Why do you think this is the case?
- shadowgovt 7y ago
  > Do you think the kids in poor immigrant neighborhoods are in worse positions than poor kids in eastern Kentucky? Your line of reasoning did a dodge there, swapping out between geographic demographics and racial demographics. I don't think all kids in poor immigrant neighborhoods are in worse positions than poor kids in Eastern Kentucky. I do think that all the white-looking kids in eastern Kentucky, regardless of other factors stacked against them, will never be denied a job, loan, or rental opportunity based on the color of their skin. I can't say the same for the kids from any of those regions who don't look white.
autokad 7y ago
> "those who are not oppressed simply have no real frame of reference to understand the problem" Yet somehow you think you are enlightened by a little volunteer work. as far as immigrants in America go, Asians make more money than whites. When you compare Chinese, the difference is starker. FWIW, I don't think you were really that poor. I grew up white, male, and poor from Appalachia. I promise you, there was no privilege in that. Its a crime against humanity that someone's test scores are worth less than another's simply because they were not born with enough pigment in their skin.
- fromky 7y ago
  On the other hand be happy you were given the poor white from Appalachia scale for your test scores rather than the middle-class Asian from New Jersey scale.
berberous 7y ago
So two wrongs make a right? I think America largely fails its poor, black and marginalized communities, and that a ton more can and should be done, but that doesn't mean affirmative action is the right (both effectively and morally) solution, or that it's not systemacially unfair to other groups.
murgindrag 7y ago
Institutional racism is real. That doesn't make these programs right, or even a solution. Ivy+ schools carefully pick out minorities who didn't grow up in poor neighborhoods. Most of these programs act as institutionalized racism, and give the appearance of doing something without the reality. If you pick out students who had real disadvantage -- growing up with horrible schools, having uneducated parents, not speaking English, being poor -- I'd be 100% for them. That's not what we've got. We've got a system where Harvard will bring in black people from the "right" neighborhoods, and white people if their parents went to Harvard, taught at Harvard, or donated to Harvard.

packet881 7y ago

Feel free to make your voice heard by your vote and donate from your paycheck. This is a zero sum game and my ancestors were not oppressing either latinos or Africans. I'll make my voice heard by not voting for Democrats.

wavefunction 7y ago
This Judge was confirmed by the Senate which has been in Republican hands for some time. You should go start your own Harvard and you can exclude or admit anyone you want.
- koolba 7y ago
  > This Judge was confirmed by the Senate which has been in Republican hands for some time. The judge was appointed by President Obama and confirmed by a Democrat controlled Senate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_Dale_Burroughs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_Dale_Burroughs Federal judgeships are lifetime appointments so the current makeup of the Senate, short of impeaching her, has no relevance.
shadowgovt 7y ago
Education is not a zero-sum game.
- WillPostForFood 7y ago
  College admissions are zero-sum
  - shadowgovt 7y ago
    Not if we keep building colleges, no.
    - legostormtroopr 7y ago
      Except there is only one Harvard University. You could spend billions making a new University next door that has just as high standard of teachers and facilities, but it wouldn't be Harvard. Not that being "Harvard" would make it better, but to a lot of people the prestige of the name is important. So to that effect, it is a zero sum game.
      - shadowgovt 7y ago
        Does Harvard maintain that lauded reputation if it's known to admit a racial monoculture? Especially in, say, the technology fields, where we've seen the negative impact of such monoculture in the quality of software developed using machine learning algorithms?
        paggle 7y ago
        All of the biggest software companies have almost no black engineers and relatively few female engineers. They still manage to make money hand over fist, looks like their software is good enough to do the job.
        shadowgovt 7y ago
        So you're satisfied with "makes money, but has known biases against people's inborn traits." In general, we is a society (in America at least) have decided that's not good enough. It hasn't been good enough since the time there was one facility for the whites and one facility for the coloreds.
kemiller 7y ago
If you are an American citizen or resident then you benefit from the system that did oppress them. It’s not about your personal ancestors.
mlevental 7y ago
> my ancestors were not oppressing either latinos or Africans. I'll make my voice heard by not voting for Democrats. so I guess you're making up for lost time? or setting the precedent for your own progeny? because I'm like 100% sure that during the era of slavery the same arguments were made by slavers - "my ancestors didn't participate in the crusades so I'm morally absolved..."

jrs235 7y ago

I'm like you. White and use to think the same. Love him or hate him, the last chapter, A Jamaican Story, in Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers really pierced my heart. I can't fathom what it must be like. I think those that despise affirmative action take things personally. They are right, sometimes it's not fair since they busted their butt, paid their dues, etc but lose out possibly because the color of their skin. It sucks and I'm sorry.

JPKab 7y ago

Do you think the kids in poor immigrant neighborhoods are in worse positions than poor kids in eastern Kentucky? Because the current policies treat white kids from trailer parks like white kids from fancy suburbs. And they treat FOB Asians like they are doctor's children. And black kids from fancy suburbs are treated as if they came from poor ghettos. The idea that "oppression" is limited to dimensions of race and gender, rather than ethnic/economic/geographic/etc is as juvenile as it is political useful. You have had up close experience with one kind of disadvantaged community, and act as if that is the only group that has it. The difference between urban communities and places like Clay County, Kentucky is that volunteers like you won't ever get sent to Kentucky.

richmunk567 7y ago
>they treat FOB Asians like they are doctor's children Diversity measures not withstanding, universities try to admit the students most likely to go on to have the most success in adult life and for Asians adolescent academic performance is a worse predictor of this than for Europeans. https://www.unz.com/article/why-harvard-is-right-to-discriminate-against-asians/ https://www.unz.com/article/why-harvard-is-right-to-discrimi...
- shard972 7y ago
  Um, are you claiming that asians are biologically smarter than all other races? How... Racist?
- tamizhar 7y ago
  > Asians adolescent academic performance is a worse predictor of this than for Europeans. Why do you think this is the case?
shadowgovt 7y ago
> Do you think the kids in poor immigrant neighborhoods are in worse positions than poor kids in eastern Kentucky? Your line of reasoning did a dodge there, swapping out between geographic demographics and racial demographics. I don't think all kids in poor immigrant neighborhoods are in worse positions than poor kids in Eastern Kentucky. I do think that all the white-looking kids in eastern Kentucky, regardless of other factors stacked against them, will never be denied a job, loan, or rental opportunity based on the color of their skin. I can't say the same for the kids from any of those regions who don't look white.

autokad 7y ago

> "those who are not oppressed simply have no real frame of reference to understand the problem" Yet somehow you think you are enlightened by a little volunteer work. as far as immigrants in America go, Asians make more money than whites. When you compare Chinese, the difference is starker. FWIW, I don't think you were really that poor. I grew up white, male, and poor from Appalachia. I promise you, there was no privilege in that. Its a crime against humanity that someone's test scores are worth less than another's simply because they were not born with enough pigment in their skin.

fromky 7y ago
On the other hand be happy you were given the poor white from Appalachia scale for your test scores rather than the middle-class Asian from New Jersey scale.

berberous 7y ago

So two wrongs make a right? I think America largely fails its poor, black and marginalized communities, and that a ton more can and should be done, but that doesn't mean affirmative action is the right (both effectively and morally) solution, or that it's not systemacially unfair to other groups.

murgindrag 7y ago

Institutional racism is real. That doesn't make these programs right, or even a solution. Ivy+ schools carefully pick out minorities who didn't grow up in poor neighborhoods. Most of these programs act as institutionalized racism, and give the appearance of doing something without the reality. If you pick out students who had real disadvantage -- growing up with horrible schools, having uneducated parents, not speaking English, being poor -- I'd be 100% for them. That's not what we've got. We've got a system where Harvard will bring in black people from the "right" neighborhoods, and white people if their parents went to Harvard, taught at Harvard, or donated to Harvard.