8 ms·

If you have a gun in your house and are responsible with it, nobody will be at risk.

bsder 7y ago
Hogwash. My military-trained father-in-law accidentally discharged his handgun inside the house while cleaning it. The bullet ricocheted and could have killed anybody. It was a manufacturing defect. All those guns were recalled and replaced 2 months later.
- cwkoss 7y ago
  He was cleaning a loaded gun?
  - bsder 7y ago
    We gave him a lot of hell thinking he did exactly that. He claimed he unloaded it and checked he unloaded it. A couple weeks later every single one of those guns was recalled and replaced by the manufacturer. The gun, itself, apparently had a defect wherein it could pop a round loose, hold it where you couldn't see it, and then chamber it if you knocked it a bit. I have no idea how this could possibly occur, but the manufacturer actually claimed this and wound up having to spend enough money that something wasn't right with those handguns. Fortunately, he adhered to standard discipline and made sure the gun was never pointed at anybody. So, when it did go off, nobody was in line of fire. However, it did ricochet and still could have caused quite a bit of harm. Always adhering to discipline doesn't make probabilities zero--it just minimizes them.
maest 7y ago
That argument is pretty much a "no true Scotsman" type argument. You can't discard datapoints you don't like because they're not "responsible" firearm holders.
- pageandrew 7y ago
  No, you can. Owning a gun for self defense is an individual decision, so individual responsibility must be considered. You can’t say that the Americans who want guns for self defense are better off without them because statistically, across the population, they increase danger.
  - jzoch 7y ago
    Why can't you say that? Every decision you make is an individual decision. Whether or not to vaccinate yourself is an individual decision, owning a gun, driving a car, looking both ways. All can have consequences for others besides yourself.
    - cwkoss 7y ago
      I don't understand your response. Are you arguing that vaccinations, cars and being a responsible pedestrian should also be banned?
- ctdonath 7y ago
  No, we’re objecting to conflating categories which demonstrably exhibit radically different behaviors and outcomes. To overstate the point: You can’t conflate “bought a black market gun, keeps it illegally, has no training, and engages in felonious behavior on a regular basis” with “endured numerous comprehensive background checks, bought high value guns (some specialized) at retail, took hundreds of hours of training from prominent instructors, keeps them for sport and defense, obeys all applicable laws, is a practical expert in said laws, and has committed no crimes”, then when the former happens to kill someone illegally, proceed to average the two and use that to assert “see? owning guns is bad”.
MikeHolman 7y ago
How do I know if you are responsible? Do your children have access? Are you sure they can't find the key or figure out the code? A couple months ago a friend of a friend was killed because a boy from school brought a gun from home to their house to show off and was playing with it. He thought it was empty. It wasn't. Now a girl is dead, a boy's life is ruined, and their families are devastated. This happens all the time.
- cwkoss 7y ago
  I think making parents liable for violence caused by their children who gain access to their weapons is a reasonable regulation, and some states have already passed laws to this effect.
coldtea 7y ago
Yeah, sure... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/man-shoots-himself-in-the-head-and-dies-while-demonstrating-gun-safety-9153098.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/man-shoots... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nra-employee-shoots-himself_n_58e7f971e4b00de1410384e7 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nra-employee-shoots-himself_n... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/man-accidently-shoots-self-wife-at-gun-safety-class/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/man-accidently-shoots-self-wife... (I won't even mention the circular argument in the parent comment)
- phaus 7y ago
  Gun owners accidentally shooting themselves means there's a 100% chance they were doing something that following the most basic gun safety controls that everyone knows about would make impossible. You can infer from this that those people were not responsible gun owners. Link 1: Guy said it was unloaded. Gun safety rule #1 is treat every gun likes its loaded and clear every gun when someone hands it to you so you know personally that it is in fact unloaded. Not doing either of those things is incredibly stupid and irresponsible. Link 2: "The man was showing his girlfriend that loaded guns are safe when he died" - The guy was playing with a loaded gun. No legitimate gun safety demonstration would claim that a loaded gun is ever safe. That's not responsible gun handling. Link 3: Doesn't describe the incident in detail but he pointed a loaded gun at a living thing so its gross negligence. Link 4: Another questionable gun safety demonstration. Once again no detail but he pointed a loaded gun at a person else it would have been physically impossible for a person to get shot. It is not standard practice to have live rounds around when you are doing a safety demonstration. They make clearly marked training rounds that have no propellant in them for the purpose of demonstrating loading and unloading a firearm. Using live rounds is not justifiable as "responsible" behavior. Its disingenuous to use examples of people doing incredibly reckless things in order to argue that "responsible gun owners" regularly shoot themselves or others. Gun handling is like being the only car driving on a road during the day with clear, calm weather, no animals, and no pedestrians around. It makes it so simple that all you have to do is maintain a sane speed and drive between the lines and there's no way you can get into an accident. Handling a gun is always like that unless you're on a battlefield or something. If you follow simple rules its impossible to hurt someone.

Hogwash. My military-trained father-in-law accidentally discharged his handgun inside the house while cleaning it. The bullet ricocheted and could have killed anybody. It was a manufacturing defect. All those guns were recalled and replaced 2 months later.

cwkoss 7y ago
He was cleaning a loaded gun?
- bsder 7y ago
  We gave him a lot of hell thinking he did exactly that. He claimed he unloaded it and checked he unloaded it. A couple weeks later every single one of those guns was recalled and replaced by the manufacturer. The gun, itself, apparently had a defect wherein it could pop a round loose, hold it where you couldn't see it, and then chamber it if you knocked it a bit. I have no idea how this could possibly occur, but the manufacturer actually claimed this and wound up having to spend enough money that something wasn't right with those handguns. Fortunately, he adhered to standard discipline and made sure the gun was never pointed at anybody. So, when it did go off, nobody was in line of fire. However, it did ricochet and still could have caused quite a bit of harm. Always adhering to discipline doesn't make probabilities zero--it just minimizes them.

maest 7y ago

That argument is pretty much a "no true Scotsman" type argument. You can't discard datapoints you don't like because they're not "responsible" firearm holders.

pageandrew 7y ago
No, you can. Owning a gun for self defense is an individual decision, so individual responsibility must be considered. You can’t say that the Americans who want guns for self defense are better off without them because statistically, across the population, they increase danger.
- jzoch 7y ago
  Why can't you say that? Every decision you make is an individual decision. Whether or not to vaccinate yourself is an individual decision, owning a gun, driving a car, looking both ways. All can have consequences for others besides yourself.
  - cwkoss 7y ago
    I don't understand your response. Are you arguing that vaccinations, cars and being a responsible pedestrian should also be banned?
ctdonath 7y ago
No, we’re objecting to conflating categories which demonstrably exhibit radically different behaviors and outcomes. To overstate the point: You can’t conflate “bought a black market gun, keeps it illegally, has no training, and engages in felonious behavior on a regular basis” with “endured numerous comprehensive background checks, bought high value guns (some specialized) at retail, took hundreds of hours of training from prominent instructors, keeps them for sport and defense, obeys all applicable laws, is a practical expert in said laws, and has committed no crimes”, then when the former happens to kill someone illegally, proceed to average the two and use that to assert “see? owning guns is bad”.

MikeHolman 7y ago

How do I know if you are responsible? Do your children have access? Are you sure they can't find the key or figure out the code? A couple months ago a friend of a friend was killed because a boy from school brought a gun from home to their house to show off and was playing with it. He thought it was empty. It wasn't. Now a girl is dead, a boy's life is ruined, and their families are devastated. This happens all the time.

cwkoss 7y ago
I think making parents liable for violence caused by their children who gain access to their weapons is a reasonable regulation, and some states have already passed laws to this effect.

coldtea 7y ago

Yeah, sure... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/man-shoots-himself-in-the-head-and-dies-while-demonstrating-gun-safety-9153098.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/man-shoots... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nra-employee-shoots-himself_n_58e7f971e4b00de1410384e7 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nra-employee-shoots-himself_n... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/man-accidently-shoots-self-wife-at-gun-safety-class/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/man-accidently-shoots-self-wife... (I won't even mention the circular argument in the parent comment)

phaus 7y ago
Gun owners accidentally shooting themselves means there's a 100% chance they were doing something that following the most basic gun safety controls that everyone knows about would make impossible. You can infer from this that those people were not responsible gun owners. Link 1: Guy said it was unloaded. Gun safety rule #1 is treat every gun likes its loaded and clear every gun when someone hands it to you so you know personally that it is in fact unloaded. Not doing either of those things is incredibly stupid and irresponsible. Link 2: "The man was showing his girlfriend that loaded guns are safe when he died" - The guy was playing with a loaded gun. No legitimate gun safety demonstration would claim that a loaded gun is ever safe. That's not responsible gun handling. Link 3: Doesn't describe the incident in detail but he pointed a loaded gun at a living thing so its gross negligence. Link 4: Another questionable gun safety demonstration. Once again no detail but he pointed a loaded gun at a person else it would have been physically impossible for a person to get shot. It is not standard practice to have live rounds around when you are doing a safety demonstration. They make clearly marked training rounds that have no propellant in them for the purpose of demonstrating loading and unloading a firearm. Using live rounds is not justifiable as "responsible" behavior. Its disingenuous to use examples of people doing incredibly reckless things in order to argue that "responsible gun owners" regularly shoot themselves or others. Gun handling is like being the only car driving on a road during the day with clear, calm weather, no animals, and no pedestrians around. It makes it so simple that all you have to do is maintain a sane speed and drive between the lines and there's no way you can get into an accident. Handling a gun is always like that unless you're on a battlefield or something. If you follow simple rules its impossible to hurt someone.