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Clearly all racial and ethnic sub-groups were discriminated against to various degrees in the US (and elsewhere). I distinctly remember being taught this (inclu

Clearly all racial and ethnic sub-groups were discriminated against to various degrees in the US (and elsewhere). I distinctly remember being taught this (including about several of your bullet points) in the Texas suburb I grew up in. But its not comparable in scope or legacy to that of Black Americans, and by your own admission if Asian American's "basically own the United States" -- do they actually need help? Its not just about being fair, its about fixing the legacy of segregation in the US. There's an obvious gap between blacks and whites -- not so much between asians and whites.

tathougies 7y ago
> not so much between asians and whites. What are you even talking about? https://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1044&context=aalj https://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?art... Basically all post-slavery discrimination against blacks happened to Asians. Can you please cite anything that can support the opposite claim? It's typically better to argue with facts than making shit up, or worse, misrepresenting the facts due to a systematic removal of history from history books. > your own admission if Asian American's "basically own the United States" -- do they actually need help? Yes. Asians owned a significant portion of the Western United States before they were put in internment too. Simply having ownership of various assets means nothing if the government is not representative of the population -- after all, it is the threat of government force that maintains every individual's property rights. The fact is that Asians may have money, but have little political power.
- cloverich 7y ago
  I should have said "as much". My implication is that the gap between asian's and whites is both smaller and closing more rapidly than that between black's and whites, based on what I've read and experienced. It doesn't mean there isn't discrimination (etc). > Basically all post-slavery discrimination against blacks happened to Asians. Can you please cite anything that can support the opposite claim? I'm not arguing that point. I'm saying that the thing you are excluding from your argument -- hundreds of years of slavery -- has a legacy that goes beyond the discriminatory practices you highlight and likely requires a larger corrective action to fix.
  - tathougies 7y ago
    Underlying your position, is the belief that the main reason that African Americans face poorer outcomes than Asian Americans in aggregate is because they have faced more discrimination against them. You are unwilling to compromise in this belief. You are using Asian's relative success against African Americans to argue that they must therefore not have experienced discrimination. This reasoning is backwards. You ought to first quantify the discrimination (you'll have to figure how to do that yourself) and then see if there's a correlation. Otherwise, you're arguing a fallacy -- a form of affirming the consequent. If we were to accept your explanation, then we would be forced to conclude that other groups (such as the Hmong or Bangladeshi) who are doing as bad (or perhaps worse) than African Americans must have faced even worse discrimination in America in the past, which I think you'd agree is not true.
    - cloverich 7y ago
      > Underlying your position, is the belief that the main reason that African Americans face poorer outcomes than Asian Americans in aggregate is because they have faced more discrimination against them. You are unwilling to compromise in this belief. Different discrimination. I'll elaborate. > You ought to first quantify the discrimination (you'll have to figure how to do that yourself) Sure. Slavery is worse. Multi-generational race based slavery is worse still. That on top of pulling people from multiple distinct ethno linguistic groups, separating their families, destroying their culture and language, and killing them, is worse still. That's the history of blacks in America. Its not just discrimination (which is bad). Its the wiping out of culture that's the problem. When you put discrimination on top of it, you get what we have today. That's what I believe to be true based on what I know so far. To tie that back in, I think it makes sense that it would take generations of affirmative action like repairs to fix the problem. Its not that I don't think Asians (etc) were not discriminated against. Its just that I think it was a (much) larger, more severe scale, that warrants an independent reparation. Its perhaps comparable to Native Americans. I bet they fare similarly in modern America (I don't know the stats). > we would be forced to conclude that other groups No. I don't know much about those other groups. It could be any number of extrinsic factors that put them into a similar position (as measured by, e.g. poverty?).
underpand 7y ago
I disagree with both you and OP on the race-based oppression Olympics. Class matters more than race. Class heals all past discriminations for educational and professional outcomes. Most affirmative action beneficiaries are middle and upper class. Their class standing shields them from the effects of past discrimination. In the case of African Americans, they are less oppressed than Asian (and all other races) applicants that come from immigrant families. African Americans had access to first world education and infrastructure throughout the 1940s-1980s. Compared with immigrants from previously communistic or 3rd world countries, African Americans have been very privileged. It also helps that African Americans don't have a language barrier in America.
- tathougies 7y ago
  I broadly agree that class matters more than race, but I fail to see how your other statements do not contribute to he so-called 'race-based oppression Olympics'.

tathougies 7y ago

> not so much between asians and whites. What are you even talking about? https://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1044&context=aalj https://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?art... Basically all post-slavery discrimination against blacks happened to Asians. Can you please cite anything that can support the opposite claim? It's typically better to argue with facts than making shit up, or worse, misrepresenting the facts due to a systematic removal of history from history books. > your own admission if Asian American's "basically own the United States" -- do they actually need help? Yes. Asians owned a significant portion of the Western United States before they were put in internment too. Simply having ownership of various assets means nothing if the government is not representative of the population -- after all, it is the threat of government force that maintains every individual's property rights. The fact is that Asians may have money, but have little political power.

cloverich 7y ago
I should have said "as much". My implication is that the gap between asian's and whites is both smaller and closing more rapidly than that between black's and whites, based on what I've read and experienced. It doesn't mean there isn't discrimination (etc). > Basically all post-slavery discrimination against blacks happened to Asians. Can you please cite anything that can support the opposite claim? I'm not arguing that point. I'm saying that the thing you are excluding from your argument -- hundreds of years of slavery -- has a legacy that goes beyond the discriminatory practices you highlight and likely requires a larger corrective action to fix.
- tathougies 7y ago
  Underlying your position, is the belief that the main reason that African Americans face poorer outcomes than Asian Americans in aggregate is because they have faced more discrimination against them. You are unwilling to compromise in this belief. You are using Asian's relative success against African Americans to argue that they must therefore not have experienced discrimination. This reasoning is backwards. You ought to first quantify the discrimination (you'll have to figure how to do that yourself) and then see if there's a correlation. Otherwise, you're arguing a fallacy -- a form of affirming the consequent. If we were to accept your explanation, then we would be forced to conclude that other groups (such as the Hmong or Bangladeshi) who are doing as bad (or perhaps worse) than African Americans must have faced even worse discrimination in America in the past, which I think you'd agree is not true.
  - cloverich 7y ago
    > Underlying your position, is the belief that the main reason that African Americans face poorer outcomes than Asian Americans in aggregate is because they have faced more discrimination against them. You are unwilling to compromise in this belief. Different discrimination. I'll elaborate. > You ought to first quantify the discrimination (you'll have to figure how to do that yourself) Sure. Slavery is worse. Multi-generational race based slavery is worse still. That on top of pulling people from multiple distinct ethno linguistic groups, separating their families, destroying their culture and language, and killing them, is worse still. That's the history of blacks in America. Its not just discrimination (which is bad). Its the wiping out of culture that's the problem. When you put discrimination on top of it, you get what we have today. That's what I believe to be true based on what I know so far. To tie that back in, I think it makes sense that it would take generations of affirmative action like repairs to fix the problem. Its not that I don't think Asians (etc) were not discriminated against. Its just that I think it was a (much) larger, more severe scale, that warrants an independent reparation. Its perhaps comparable to Native Americans. I bet they fare similarly in modern America (I don't know the stats). > we would be forced to conclude that other groups No. I don't know much about those other groups. It could be any number of extrinsic factors that put them into a similar position (as measured by, e.g. poverty?).

underpand 7y ago

I disagree with both you and OP on the race-based oppression Olympics. Class matters more than race. Class heals all past discriminations for educational and professional outcomes. Most affirmative action beneficiaries are middle and upper class. Their class standing shields them from the effects of past discrimination. In the case of African Americans, they are less oppressed than Asian (and all other races) applicants that come from immigrant families. African Americans had access to first world education and infrastructure throughout the 1940s-1980s. Compared with immigrants from previously communistic or 3rd world countries, African Americans have been very privileged. It also helps that African Americans don't have a language barrier in America.

tathougies 7y ago
I broadly agree that class matters more than race, but I fail to see how your other statements do not contribute to he so-called 'race-based oppression Olympics'.