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Unfortunately this is bigger than Harvard and the Asian American students are 'collateral damage'. Fundamentally, the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow permeates e

Unfortunately this is bigger than Harvard and the Asian American students are 'collateral damage'. Fundamentally, the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow permeates every facet of American life, education especially. You can't fix hundreds of years worth of discrimination without tipping the scales in a way that seems discriminatory to others, seems like the Judge in this case understands that.

hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
This is Jim Crow.
- kkggyftfxdfg 7y ago
  Lol are you fucked?
baggy_trough 7y ago
Immoral and unethical nonsense.
- 40acres 7y ago
  Is it really? Think about the often used phrase in regards to subjects like this: 'equality of opportunity' vs. 'equality of outcome' think of all it would take in America to come close to equality of opportunity: you would need vast levels of education and housing reform at the minimum. That reform would no doubt 'disadvantage' those who have benefited from the discrimination and lack of access that others have dealt with. Fundamentally it looks like an institution like Harvard taking into account this context when determining admissions. This is beyond the individuals who may or may not participate in the discrimination itself because the outcome of that discrimination is everywhere now, no one can escape it.
  - mrrrgn 7y ago
    There's no way that you can form a tally from the sum total of a person's entire lineage in order to equalize them according to their ancestors struggles. Attempts to do this seem mostly to act as a laundering scheme for financial privilege. Now all someone from a wealthy family needs to do to justify their admission to elite institutions is to find some great great grandparent who plausibly suffered a systemic injustice. I see the good intentions here, but I get the impression that well meaning rule oriented people are being used to further the very injustices they mean to solve.
    - goatinaboat 7y ago
      Now all someone from a wealthy family needs to do to justify their admission to elite institutions is to find some great great grandparent who plausibly suffered a systemic injustice. Such as being 1/1024 Native American, that technique is known to work at Harvard
    - pessimizer 7y ago
      > There's no way that you can form a tally from the sum total of a person's entire lineage in order to equalize them according to their ancestors struggles. Inherited family wealth nominally does this. There wouldn't be a need for reparations after a generation or two of a 100% inheritance tax.
pyronik19 7y ago
I'm sorry, is this a judge or a legislator? I don't think their job is to "fix" anything. If the government is going to discriminate against me over my skin color I want to be able to hold them accountable at the ballot box.
- 40acres 7y ago
  The legal basis behind affirmative action, which is the means by which we "fix" these things, has been challenged many times. This case is simply a reaffirmation of the principle.
steveeq1 7y ago
past discrimination does not explain the rise of asians.
ddgflorida 7y ago
This is discrimination and yet Harvard is a private school and should be able to make its own admission standards. Taking federal money complicates that.
tathougies 7y ago
Asian Americans were as discriminated against as African Americans under Jim Crow. The fact is that we have forgotten the rampant bigotry against Asian Americans because us Asian Americans now basically own the United States of America. Asian Americans had to put up with (among other things): * Being ineligible to become citizens of the United States well after the passage of the 13th Amendment. There was a time in this country when both the white and black man could enjoy citizenship and voting but neither the brown nor yellow man could. * A good portion of Asian Americans (the Japanese) who were American citizens were enslaved by the government for three years, after having all their land and businesses taken away. This was in the 1940s. * Being victims of hate crimes. There was an entire gang in New Jersey in the 80s dedicated to beating up and murdering Indians (dotbusters). This is not a new phenomenon. The labor movement in Seattle also organized a mob to rid Washington state of cheap Indian labor in the early 1900s (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellingham_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellingham_riots) * The stereotype that Asians prevent 'real American' people from achieving their wealth goals is oddly persistent. It is highly reminiscent of the blame that Hitler laid upon the Jews as preventing real Germans from achieving their potential. The Asiatic Exclusion League in the United States had its first meeting in 1907. * Moreso than black people, Asian Americans are constantly cast as being perpetual foreigners. Americans whose families have been in this country decades are still treated as Asians, rather than 'full' Americans. I think it is especially telling that the organizations in favor of affirmative action are also the ones that started the Asian exclusion leagues. The labor movement in this country spearheaded affirmative action. Affirmative action discriminates against asians. This continues a long line of labor movement participation in Asian Exclusion Leagues, and it needs to end now.
- cloverich 7y ago
  Clearly all racial and ethnic sub-groups were discriminated against to various degrees in the US (and elsewhere). I distinctly remember being taught this (including about several of your bullet points) in the Texas suburb I grew up in. But its not comparable in scope or legacy to that of Black Americans, and by your own admission if Asian American's "basically own the United States" -- do they actually need help? Its not just about being fair, its about fixing the legacy of segregation in the US. There's an obvious gap between blacks and whites -- not so much between asians and whites.
wendyshu 7y ago
Plausible but to turn this assertion into an actual argument there'd need to be a causal statistical analysis. I'd be interested in receiving a pointer to the relevant literature.
noetic_techy 7y ago
I just don't buy this anymore. Not when Asians, Indians, Nigerians, Lebonese, Cubans, Iranians and Jews all do better than average White households in America and are over represented in education. If it permeates everything, why does it not apply to these groups? Amy Chau wrote a great book on this: The Triple Package. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Triple_Package https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Triple_Package
- 40acres 7y ago
  Perhaps because those groups were not subject to the institutional effects of slavery? If I told you that a people were discriminated against for hundreds of years would you be surprised to learn that they statistically under-perform their peers on certain measures? It's like asking why aren't there more Jews in Spain.
  - steveeq1 7y ago
    Asians were discriminated against, quite heavily, in america during the 19th and early 20th century. Doesn't seem to be affecting them . . .
hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
Jim Crow was institutional racism designed to suppress one group and lift up another. This is institutional racism designed to suppress one group and lift up another. What is the difference?

hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago

This is Jim Crow.

kkggyftfxdfg 7y ago
Lol are you fucked?

baggy_trough 7y ago

Immoral and unethical nonsense.

40acres 7y ago
Is it really? Think about the often used phrase in regards to subjects like this: 'equality of opportunity' vs. 'equality of outcome' think of all it would take in America to come close to equality of opportunity: you would need vast levels of education and housing reform at the minimum. That reform would no doubt 'disadvantage' those who have benefited from the discrimination and lack of access that others have dealt with. Fundamentally it looks like an institution like Harvard taking into account this context when determining admissions. This is beyond the individuals who may or may not participate in the discrimination itself because the outcome of that discrimination is everywhere now, no one can escape it.
- mrrrgn 7y ago
  There's no way that you can form a tally from the sum total of a person's entire lineage in order to equalize them according to their ancestors struggles. Attempts to do this seem mostly to act as a laundering scheme for financial privilege. Now all someone from a wealthy family needs to do to justify their admission to elite institutions is to find some great great grandparent who plausibly suffered a systemic injustice. I see the good intentions here, but I get the impression that well meaning rule oriented people are being used to further the very injustices they mean to solve.
  - goatinaboat 7y ago
    Now all someone from a wealthy family needs to do to justify their admission to elite institutions is to find some great great grandparent who plausibly suffered a systemic injustice. Such as being 1/1024 Native American, that technique is known to work at Harvard
  - pessimizer 7y ago
    > There's no way that you can form a tally from the sum total of a person's entire lineage in order to equalize them according to their ancestors struggles. Inherited family wealth nominally does this. There wouldn't be a need for reparations after a generation or two of a 100% inheritance tax.

pyronik19 7y ago

I'm sorry, is this a judge or a legislator? I don't think their job is to "fix" anything. If the government is going to discriminate against me over my skin color I want to be able to hold them accountable at the ballot box.

40acres 7y ago
The legal basis behind affirmative action, which is the means by which we "fix" these things, has been challenged many times. This case is simply a reaffirmation of the principle.

steveeq1 7y ago

past discrimination does not explain the rise of asians.

ddgflorida 7y ago

This is discrimination and yet Harvard is a private school and should be able to make its own admission standards. Taking federal money complicates that.

tathougies 7y ago

Asian Americans were as discriminated against as African Americans under Jim Crow. The fact is that we have forgotten the rampant bigotry against Asian Americans because us Asian Americans now basically own the United States of America. Asian Americans had to put up with (among other things): * Being ineligible to become citizens of the United States well after the passage of the 13th Amendment. There was a time in this country when both the white and black man could enjoy citizenship and voting but neither the brown nor yellow man could. * A good portion of Asian Americans (the Japanese) who were American citizens were enslaved by the government for three years, after having all their land and businesses taken away. This was in the 1940s. * Being victims of hate crimes. There was an entire gang in New Jersey in the 80s dedicated to beating up and murdering Indians (dotbusters). This is not a new phenomenon. The labor movement in Seattle also organized a mob to rid Washington state of cheap Indian labor in the early 1900s (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellingham_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellingham_riots) * The stereotype that Asians prevent 'real American' people from achieving their wealth goals is oddly persistent. It is highly reminiscent of the blame that Hitler laid upon the Jews as preventing real Germans from achieving their potential. The Asiatic Exclusion League in the United States had its first meeting in 1907. * Moreso than black people, Asian Americans are constantly cast as being perpetual foreigners. Americans whose families have been in this country decades are still treated as Asians, rather than 'full' Americans. I think it is especially telling that the organizations in favor of affirmative action are also the ones that started the Asian exclusion leagues. The labor movement in this country spearheaded affirmative action. Affirmative action discriminates against asians. This continues a long line of labor movement participation in Asian Exclusion Leagues, and it needs to end now.

cloverich 7y ago
Clearly all racial and ethnic sub-groups were discriminated against to various degrees in the US (and elsewhere). I distinctly remember being taught this (including about several of your bullet points) in the Texas suburb I grew up in. But its not comparable in scope or legacy to that of Black Americans, and by your own admission if Asian American's "basically own the United States" -- do they actually need help? Its not just about being fair, its about fixing the legacy of segregation in the US. There's an obvious gap between blacks and whites -- not so much between asians and whites.

wendyshu 7y ago

Plausible but to turn this assertion into an actual argument there'd need to be a causal statistical analysis. I'd be interested in receiving a pointer to the relevant literature.

noetic_techy 7y ago

I just don't buy this anymore. Not when Asians, Indians, Nigerians, Lebonese, Cubans, Iranians and Jews all do better than average White households in America and are over represented in education. If it permeates everything, why does it not apply to these groups? Amy Chau wrote a great book on this: The Triple Package. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Triple_Package https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Triple_Package

40acres 7y ago
Perhaps because those groups were not subject to the institutional effects of slavery? If I told you that a people were discriminated against for hundreds of years would you be surprised to learn that they statistically under-perform their peers on certain measures? It's like asking why aren't there more Jews in Spain.
- steveeq1 7y ago
  Asians were discriminated against, quite heavily, in america during the 19th and early 20th century. Doesn't seem to be affecting them . . .

hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago

Jim Crow was institutional racism designed to suppress one group and lift up another. This is institutional racism designed to suppress one group and lift up another. What is the difference?