7 ms·

The entire problem is that we categorize people into different buckets. "White", "Black", "Asian", etc. Admissions must be race blind. In general our society m

The entire problem is that we categorize people into different buckets. "White", "Black", "Asian", etc. Admissions must be race blind. In general our society must be race blind. "White" people were once Polish, Italian, German, etc. Yet these identities have melted away over generations in large part because society did not and does not actively reinforce these identities. By forcing people into these buckets we reinforce the very divisions that we want to overcome.

moate 7y ago
There's so much to unpack here, IDK where to even start. "I don't see color" doesn't feel helpful to many people of color. If you believe that there are prejudices, and you want to fix them, saying "everyone immediately needs to stop being prejudice and everything will be better" isn't actually a solution we can enact. What if people don't suddenly decide it's in their best interest to not be racist? *Edited to remove off topic comment
- homonculus1 7y ago
  That may not be sufficient, but setting institutional standards that treat people differently based on skin color is guaranteed to perpetuate racial division and prejudice.
- charliesharding 7y ago
  It doesn't feel helpful to be viewed as an individual as opposed to simply a member of a group? Not every person with x skin color has the same experiences... You're taking racism and running the other way with it instead of just rejecting the premise of viewing people as tribe members as flawed. You shouldn't judge people by the groups they happen to belong to. Individuals should be judged on a case-by-base basis.
  - magic_beans 7y ago
    I gather you're not a minority.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - NeoBasilisk 7y ago
    >You shouldn't judge people by the groups they happen to belong to. And yet, in this country we did just that for hundreds of years. You don't just wave your hand and erase that legacy. We are in a transitional period that will hopefully help ease us into a society where these measures will truly have no place. We are not there yet.
  - shawnz 7y ago
    I don't think you're seeing what the parent is saying. What you are suggesting isn't actionable. We already have legislation to make discrimination illegal and it hasn't been effective at stopping it.
    - charliesharding 7y ago
      Of course it is - the action is to stop discrimination of any kind. And yes, yes it has been effective. Hate crimes have dropped off precipitously and minority unemployment is at an all time low. Continuing to play this reverse-discrimination game will foment resentment, especially in the group that is "allowed to be discriminated against" according to the political flavor of the times (particularly the ones that aren't winning in society) thus creating the monster that you sought to destroy.
      - shawnz 7y ago
        No, it's not actionable unless you've developed some kind of machine that can change other people's opinions. You're right that we've made significant progress on racial issues. That doesn't mean more can't or shouldn't be done. Furthermore it's not clear from your slippery slope argument that the disadvantages of reverse discrimination (of which there are of course some) are actually more significant than the advantages.
Miner49er 7y ago
But people in the Black bucket are way behind economically because people in the White bucket have been stealing from them for 100s of years, and the people in the White bucket created the buckets in the first place to do the stealing. So how do you make that right without continuing to use the buckets? The only way is to either completely dismantle Capitalism, and start over with it or something else again from scratch were everyone starts on even ground again, and it never mattered what bucket people were in. The simpler option is to use the buckets and say that people in the Black bucket get special benefits at the cost of people in the White bucket to right the wrong that happened, and this needs to continue until they're close to even again. It's like if a friend steals money from you. The only way you're likely ever going to fix that friendship is if the friend at the very least gives the money back and apologizes. Pretending like it never happened isn't going to work. An additional thing is that you still have people using the buckets for their benefit, or just because they don't know better. In order to counteract the actions of those people, and recognize who's hurt by them, you have to also use the idea of the "buckets".
- AdrianB1 7y ago
  "So how do you make that right without continuing to use the buckets? " 2 wrongs don't make it right.
  - Miner49er 7y ago
    How is paying someone back for a crime a wrong?
    - AdrianB1 7y ago
      Who are you paying back to? The person who did the crime or some other people based on similarities with the criminal? How about putting on the death row everyone in the neighborhood of a murderer? This is your logic.
      - Miner49er 7y ago
        I'm saying that white people have inherited a lot of wealth at the cost of black people. Wealth statistics clearly show this. The average black family is 10x poorer then the average white family. The stealing was done through Jim Crow, slavery, red lining, etc. If you inherit money that your parents stole, that money is taken away from you by the police and given back to the person it was stolen from. In this case, white people's ancestors stole from black people, and therefore, white people should take responsibility for that and pay back black people since they are still benefiting from that theft at the cost of black people today who would have otherwise inherited the stolen wealth.

moate 7y ago

There's so much to unpack here, IDK where to even start. "I don't see color" doesn't feel helpful to many people of color. If you believe that there are prejudices, and you want to fix them, saying "everyone immediately needs to stop being prejudice and everything will be better" isn't actually a solution we can enact. What if people don't suddenly decide it's in their best interest to not be racist? *Edited to remove off topic comment

homonculus1 7y ago
That may not be sufficient, but setting institutional standards that treat people differently based on skin color is guaranteed to perpetuate racial division and prejudice.
charliesharding 7y ago
It doesn't feel helpful to be viewed as an individual as opposed to simply a member of a group? Not every person with x skin color has the same experiences... You're taking racism and running the other way with it instead of just rejecting the premise of viewing people as tribe members as flawed. You shouldn't judge people by the groups they happen to belong to. Individuals should be judged on a case-by-base basis.
- magic_beans 7y ago
  I gather you're not a minority.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- NeoBasilisk 7y ago
  >You shouldn't judge people by the groups they happen to belong to. And yet, in this country we did just that for hundreds of years. You don't just wave your hand and erase that legacy. We are in a transitional period that will hopefully help ease us into a society where these measures will truly have no place. We are not there yet.
- shawnz 7y ago
  I don't think you're seeing what the parent is saying. What you are suggesting isn't actionable. We already have legislation to make discrimination illegal and it hasn't been effective at stopping it.
  - charliesharding 7y ago
    Of course it is - the action is to stop discrimination of any kind. And yes, yes it has been effective. Hate crimes have dropped off precipitously and minority unemployment is at an all time low. Continuing to play this reverse-discrimination game will foment resentment, especially in the group that is "allowed to be discriminated against" according to the political flavor of the times (particularly the ones that aren't winning in society) thus creating the monster that you sought to destroy.
    - shawnz 7y ago
      No, it's not actionable unless you've developed some kind of machine that can change other people's opinions. You're right that we've made significant progress on racial issues. That doesn't mean more can't or shouldn't be done. Furthermore it's not clear from your slippery slope argument that the disadvantages of reverse discrimination (of which there are of course some) are actually more significant than the advantages.

Miner49er 7y ago

But people in the Black bucket are way behind economically because people in the White bucket have been stealing from them for 100s of years, and the people in the White bucket created the buckets in the first place to do the stealing. So how do you make that right without continuing to use the buckets? The only way is to either completely dismantle Capitalism, and start over with it or something else again from scratch were everyone starts on even ground again, and it never mattered what bucket people were in. The simpler option is to use the buckets and say that people in the Black bucket get special benefits at the cost of people in the White bucket to right the wrong that happened, and this needs to continue until they're close to even again. It's like if a friend steals money from you. The only way you're likely ever going to fix that friendship is if the friend at the very least gives the money back and apologizes. Pretending like it never happened isn't going to work. An additional thing is that you still have people using the buckets for their benefit, or just because they don't know better. In order to counteract the actions of those people, and recognize who's hurt by them, you have to also use the idea of the "buckets".

AdrianB1 7y ago
"So how do you make that right without continuing to use the buckets? " 2 wrongs don't make it right.
- Miner49er 7y ago
  How is paying someone back for a crime a wrong?
  - AdrianB1 7y ago
    Who are you paying back to? The person who did the crime or some other people based on similarities with the criminal? How about putting on the death row everyone in the neighborhood of a murderer? This is your logic.
    - Miner49er 7y ago
      I'm saying that white people have inherited a lot of wealth at the cost of black people. Wealth statistics clearly show this. The average black family is 10x poorer then the average white family. The stealing was done through Jim Crow, slavery, red lining, etc. If you inherit money that your parents stole, that money is taken away from you by the police and given back to the person it was stolen from. In this case, white people's ancestors stole from black people, and therefore, white people should take responsibility for that and pay back black people since they are still benefiting from that theft at the cost of black people today who would have otherwise inherited the stolen wealth.