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> US has some founding morals and principles they do not forget. Excuse my french, but what the fuck are you talking about? How about imprisoning and torturin

> US has some founding morals and principles they do not forget. Excuse my french, but what the fuck are you talking about? How about imprisoning and torturing US citizens without due process in the name of a nebulous war that only gets worse the more we fight it? What about all the puppet governments we've set up so that our corporate overlords can make a quick buck at the expense of some country who's resources we want to plunder? The US is an empire. Not based on governmental control, but based on financial control. The difference between surveillance in the US and surveillance in China is that we've managed to keep our surveillance largely in the private sector; but that doesn't mean 1984 doesn't already exist here! In fact, you carry 1984 with you in your pocket everywhere you go! I'm not saying I'd rather live in China than the US, but putting the US on some high moral pedestal is extremely ignorant of all the terrible things we've done as a country.

jumelles 7y ago
The key here is that the executive branch of the US government doesn't get to do these things in a vacuum - both Congress and the Supreme Court temper its power, and though elections in the US are far from perfect they are still free.
- orthecreedence 7y ago
  Elections are free, but the influence money has on our government after elections is where the problem lies. And even the "free elections" portion is being eroded since Citizens United. I'm not saying China is better, but the fraction of control the average US citizen can exercise over the government in the defined political process is much, much smaller than `1 / 330,000,000`...
  - whatitdobooboo 7y ago
    Federal elections are not the only things that matter - state and local decisions have an impact. Obviously not perfect - even with the money affecting government we have the ABILITY to change that over some time period, and lobbying in some places can help. I am unsure about what exactly you are complaining about.
    - orthecreedence 7y ago
      https://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-cable-municipal-broadband-20160812-snap-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-cable... > I am unsure about what exactly you are complaining about. I wasn't. I was refuting common propaganda about the wonders of the United States. How can we fix any of our problems if we don't admit to ourselves that they exist?
      - whatitdobooboo 7y ago
        Fair enough - perhaps I should've simply said that in my opinion, reducing American ability to affect government down to % of population each individual represents isn't the best way to approach our problems
- minikites 7y ago
  >though elections in the US are far from perfect they are still free https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/29/voter-suppression-tactics-in-the-age-of-trump https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/29/voter-suppress... https://www.brennancenter.org/blog/worst-voter-suppression-weve-seen-modern-era https://www.brennancenter.org/blog/worst-voter-suppression-w...
- arcticbull 7y ago
  I'm sure your assertion of checks and balances is very helpful for the folks living out their lives in Gitmo with the force feedings and the indefinite detention without due process thanks to a technicality in regards to jurisdiction, as was the parent posts' assertion. With that in mind, on the balance of it, America is overwhelmingly a rule of law jurisdiction, and the PRC is not. There's definitely magnitudes here. My point is neither side is all good or all bad, and looking at it that way is harmful to the discourse.
sbmthakur 7y ago
> The US is an empire. Not based on governmental control, but based on financial control. But people in the US can remove legislatures and the top executive(the President). Do people in China have that option?
- yourbandsucks 7y ago
  Can they, though? We've got the test case in front of our face right now. Want to place some bets on anybody elected being removed before 2020? How much you want to bet that in 2020, for the umpteenth time in a row, we get a choice between two billion-dollar-funded candidates who are absolutely not going to buck their sponsors, ever? Taste the freedom.
  - heyoni 7y ago
    We had one with Nixon. He resigned, remember? Now just because we don’t get it again, does not mean there’s no basis for OP’s notion that we can remove legislators all the way up to the executive branch.
    - yourbandsucks 7y ago
      Fish don't know they're in water. https://sivers.org/fish https://sivers.org/fish The fact that we have the illusion of choice between candidates who will all do mostly the same things, and won't affect the bureaucracy that much anyways, doesn't make us meaningfully more free. "But my candidate had a great take on the bathroom bill controversy!", as we continue bombing weddings in afghanistan, imprisoning more people than China (!!!), etc..
- kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
  The people who fund the political parties control what happens. Elected officials do their bidding. The public front of "democracy" is just there to keep everyone else from realizing that.
- dillondoyle 7y ago
  This sinister & pervasive line of thought terrifies me. Too many Americans under 40 share similar thoughts: my vote doesn't count, some mysterious corporate/billionaire $$ controls everything so why bother, antipathy etc. It's scary that many actually believe this and thus self-fulfill their prophecy because they don't get involved and don't vote. To further amplify this detrimental affect, there are state-sponsored trolls/propagandists actively driving this wedge and these narratives online to attack our Democracy from within.
dang 7y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into nationalistic flamewar. This is not at all what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

jumelles 7y ago

The key here is that the executive branch of the US government doesn't get to do these things in a vacuum - both Congress and the Supreme Court temper its power, and though elections in the US are far from perfect they are still free.

orthecreedence 7y ago
Elections are free, but the influence money has on our government after elections is where the problem lies. And even the "free elections" portion is being eroded since Citizens United. I'm not saying China is better, but the fraction of control the average US citizen can exercise over the government in the defined political process is much, much smaller than `1 / 330,000,000`...
- whatitdobooboo 7y ago
  Federal elections are not the only things that matter - state and local decisions have an impact. Obviously not perfect - even with the money affecting government we have the ABILITY to change that over some time period, and lobbying in some places can help. I am unsure about what exactly you are complaining about.
  - orthecreedence 7y ago
    https://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-cable-municipal-broadband-20160812-snap-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-cable... > I am unsure about what exactly you are complaining about. I wasn't. I was refuting common propaganda about the wonders of the United States. How can we fix any of our problems if we don't admit to ourselves that they exist?
    - whatitdobooboo 7y ago
      Fair enough - perhaps I should've simply said that in my opinion, reducing American ability to affect government down to % of population each individual represents isn't the best way to approach our problems
minikites 7y ago
>though elections in the US are far from perfect they are still free https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/29/voter-suppression-tactics-in-the-age-of-trump https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/29/voter-suppress... https://www.brennancenter.org/blog/worst-voter-suppression-weve-seen-modern-era https://www.brennancenter.org/blog/worst-voter-suppression-w...
arcticbull 7y ago
I'm sure your assertion of checks and balances is very helpful for the folks living out their lives in Gitmo with the force feedings and the indefinite detention without due process thanks to a technicality in regards to jurisdiction, as was the parent posts' assertion. With that in mind, on the balance of it, America is overwhelmingly a rule of law jurisdiction, and the PRC is not. There's definitely magnitudes here. My point is neither side is all good or all bad, and looking at it that way is harmful to the discourse.

sbmthakur 7y ago

> The US is an empire. Not based on governmental control, but based on financial control. But people in the US can remove legislatures and the top executive(the President). Do people in China have that option?

yourbandsucks 7y ago
Can they, though? We've got the test case in front of our face right now. Want to place some bets on anybody elected being removed before 2020? How much you want to bet that in 2020, for the umpteenth time in a row, we get a choice between two billion-dollar-funded candidates who are absolutely not going to buck their sponsors, ever? Taste the freedom.
- heyoni 7y ago
  We had one with Nixon. He resigned, remember? Now just because we don’t get it again, does not mean there’s no basis for OP’s notion that we can remove legislators all the way up to the executive branch.
  - yourbandsucks 7y ago
    Fish don't know they're in water. https://sivers.org/fish https://sivers.org/fish The fact that we have the illusion of choice between candidates who will all do mostly the same things, and won't affect the bureaucracy that much anyways, doesn't make us meaningfully more free. "But my candidate had a great take on the bathroom bill controversy!", as we continue bombing weddings in afghanistan, imprisoning more people than China (!!!), etc..
kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
The people who fund the political parties control what happens. Elected officials do their bidding. The public front of "democracy" is just there to keep everyone else from realizing that.
dillondoyle 7y ago
This sinister & pervasive line of thought terrifies me. Too many Americans under 40 share similar thoughts: my vote doesn't count, some mysterious corporate/billionaire $$ controls everything so why bother, antipathy etc. It's scary that many actually believe this and thus self-fulfill their prophecy because they don't get involved and don't vote. To further amplify this detrimental affect, there are state-sponsored trolls/propagandists actively driving this wedge and these narratives online to attack our Democracy from within.

dang 7y ago

Please don't take HN threads further into nationalistic flamewar. This is not at all what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html