5 ms·

Should a 10 year old be allowed to smoke, drink, and do harder drugs? If no then why should a 10 year old be able to pick their adult sex partner(s)?

ng12 7y ago
There are plenty of anarchists in the world who would respond with an emphatic "yes". Should we be taking steps to ensure anarchists aren't allowed to write software or work at a university?
- JaimeThompson 7y ago
  Did I say he should not be" allowed to write software or work at a university"? It is concerning to me that RMS would allow kids to make adult decision while at the same time saying that adults selling software to other adults under licenses he doesn't like should be punished.
  - ng12 7y ago
    I think it's reasonably sound logic from a libertarian perspective. The more concerning thing is he's not allowed to simultaneously discuss that line of thinking while working at MIT.
    - JaimeThompson 7y ago
      Libertarians typically believe in a right of contracting something which RMS doesn't so it may not be totally correct to examine his ideas from a strict Libertarian viewpoitn.
      - ng12 7y ago
        You're still missing the point. It's not about whether RMS is right or wrong, it's about his right to argue his position in a personal capacity while still heading the FSF and CSAIL.
        JaimeThompson 7y ago
        My point is that I find it strange to give RMS rights he would not give others if he had the power to stop them from making those decisions.
        ng12 7y ago
        That is absolutely a false equivalency. I don't think you'll find any evidence that RMS believes people shouldn't be able to _discuss_ selling propriety software, or disagree with free software, or anything else.
        JaimeThompson 7y ago
        He thinks people should be punished for selling proprietary software correct? He also isn't sure than "voluntary pedophilia" is harmful / that people before puberty should be able to pick their sex partners despite not even being a teenager. Limiting this to being just a discussion on what can be "discussed" isn't valid. He appears to support actions that harm others by some of his statements.
        ng12 7y ago
        > He thinks people should be punished for selling proprietary software correct? No? I'm not really sure what you mean by "punish" here. He advocates for Free Software -- to my knowledge he's never advocated for punishing anybody. > He appears to support actions that harm others by some of his statement. How? Where's the harm? What's harmful about questioning the age of consent being 18 (which, may I remind you, varies from 12-19 worldwide). Why are some aspects of US law declared beyond the scope of acceptable discourse? You can disagree with him (I certainly do) but I don't see why we should shame him for even broaching the subject.
        DanBC 7y ago
        > Why are some aspects of US law declared beyond the scope of acceptable discourse? They're not, it's fine to talk about these things, and there are plenty of places where people discuss all aspects of law around sexual offending. The wrong time and place to talk about them is when your organisation is discussing potential problems because a high profile person linked to your organisation has been accused of raping a coerced child. People in that thread needed a useful way to deal with "MIT has links to Epstein, and Minsky is accused of raping a child". RMS's diversions into "is it rape?" and "is it assault?" were not helpful to that thread. Either RMS was oblivious to the distress and distraction his comments would cause, or he knew and didn't care. Neither is good.
roenxi 7y ago
If there is a requirement that the head of the FSF is easily understood by ordinary people there can't be a head of the FSF. Ordinary people don't understand or care about software freedom. The acknowledgement of that was why the Open Source people split from the Free Software people back in the day. The best anyone can do is make arguments that are correct if someone takes the time to read and think through them. Stallman is that sort of person, and that is likely the sort of person who is going to be at the head of the FSF if they are effective and not just a vague cheerleader. This current 'scandal' is probably a sign that the Free Software movement will die and be subsumed into the Open Source world - anyone promoting freedom is going to be a radical. In this case, I expect but don't have time to check that Stallman is using a very wide definition of coerced that captures most or all of whatever you are uncomfortable with and he is going to be technically correct on most if not all of his original points. That is completely in his style. And more to the issue at hand, these are questions that are irrelevant to Stallman's position as head of the FSF or his role in MIT. He is not using his position to push pro-adultery themes. He is calling on people to think about what words mean and what the implications of those meanings are. People can't kick up a stink for something that happened 10 years ago and claim that nothing has changed. Stallman is perfectly happy to stand up and say that he's changed his mind on many points. A couple of lines on a personal website are just not that insightful into his character. Also, whether alcohol or drugs should be available for consumption by anybody is still an open question. That is a different debate. Most of the arguments as to why a 10 year old shouldn't be drinking can actually be applied to a 40 year old. The major difference (brain development) is a big deal but there are a lot of other problems with addictive substances that are not age dependent. Why should it be acceptable for a 40 year old to drink but not a 10 year old? There are interesting aspects to consider there and to logically pin down the reasoning to a moral framework requires quite a bit of thought and probably discussion with others.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
If I have the wrong opinion on the matter, will you assassinate my career for it regardless of the rationality of any argument I might make?
- JaimeThompson 7y ago
  How do you reach that conclusion from what I posted? If punishing people for the wrong ideas is wrong is RMS wrong for saying those who release closed source software are deserving of punishment?
  - prirun 7y ago
    My guess is he means punished in the marketplace, ie, not buying proprietary software - not punish as in throw them in jail for buying/selling proprietary software. It's a perfect example of where our society seems to be heading. Taking words and sentences out of their context and publishing the fragments over and over leads to incomplete understanding and misinterpretation. To me, this is similar to the recent cases where some public figure said the N word 10 years ago, and so their present company fired them. Remember the phrase from childhood "Stick and stone may break my bones but words can never harm me." That's the principle of free speech. We sure don't have that anymore. If you are a media person and use the N word in your position, and it's against your employer's policy to do that, fine - you're fired. But if you personally are a racist or hate gays or whatever, that should be your choice, and if you say the N word to your neighbor and they record it, your employer should not be able to fire you. We have become way too sensitive IMO, and the fact that news is on 24/7 (they have to fill that time with something!) and is more about evoking feelings, spouting opinions and prophecies, and sensationalism than it is about facts, is a big part of the problem.

ng12 7y ago

There are plenty of anarchists in the world who would respond with an emphatic "yes". Should we be taking steps to ensure anarchists aren't allowed to write software or work at a university?

JaimeThompson 7y ago
Did I say he should not be" allowed to write software or work at a university"? It is concerning to me that RMS would allow kids to make adult decision while at the same time saying that adults selling software to other adults under licenses he doesn't like should be punished.
- ng12 7y ago
  I think it's reasonably sound logic from a libertarian perspective. The more concerning thing is he's not allowed to simultaneously discuss that line of thinking while working at MIT.
  - JaimeThompson 7y ago
    Libertarians typically believe in a right of contracting something which RMS doesn't so it may not be totally correct to examine his ideas from a strict Libertarian viewpoitn.
    - ng12 7y ago
      You're still missing the point. It's not about whether RMS is right or wrong, it's about his right to argue his position in a personal capacity while still heading the FSF and CSAIL.
      - JaimeThompson 7y ago
        My point is that I find it strange to give RMS rights he would not give others if he had the power to stop them from making those decisions.
        ng12 7y ago
        That is absolutely a false equivalency. I don't think you'll find any evidence that RMS believes people shouldn't be able to _discuss_ selling propriety software, or disagree with free software, or anything else.
        JaimeThompson 7y ago
        He thinks people should be punished for selling proprietary software correct? He also isn't sure than "voluntary pedophilia" is harmful / that people before puberty should be able to pick their sex partners despite not even being a teenager. Limiting this to being just a discussion on what can be "discussed" isn't valid. He appears to support actions that harm others by some of his statements.
        ng12 7y ago
        > He thinks people should be punished for selling proprietary software correct? No? I'm not really sure what you mean by "punish" here. He advocates for Free Software -- to my knowledge he's never advocated for punishing anybody. > He appears to support actions that harm others by some of his statement. How? Where's the harm? What's harmful about questioning the age of consent being 18 (which, may I remind you, varies from 12-19 worldwide). Why are some aspects of US law declared beyond the scope of acceptable discourse? You can disagree with him (I certainly do) but I don't see why we should shame him for even broaching the subject.
        DanBC 7y ago
        > Why are some aspects of US law declared beyond the scope of acceptable discourse? They're not, it's fine to talk about these things, and there are plenty of places where people discuss all aspects of law around sexual offending. The wrong time and place to talk about them is when your organisation is discussing potential problems because a high profile person linked to your organisation has been accused of raping a coerced child. People in that thread needed a useful way to deal with "MIT has links to Epstein, and Minsky is accused of raping a child". RMS's diversions into "is it rape?" and "is it assault?" were not helpful to that thread. Either RMS was oblivious to the distress and distraction his comments would cause, or he knew and didn't care. Neither is good.

roenxi 7y ago

If there is a requirement that the head of the FSF is easily understood by ordinary people there can't be a head of the FSF. Ordinary people don't understand or care about software freedom. The acknowledgement of that was why the Open Source people split from the Free Software people back in the day. The best anyone can do is make arguments that are correct if someone takes the time to read and think through them. Stallman is that sort of person, and that is likely the sort of person who is going to be at the head of the FSF if they are effective and not just a vague cheerleader. This current 'scandal' is probably a sign that the Free Software movement will die and be subsumed into the Open Source world - anyone promoting freedom is going to be a radical. In this case, I expect but don't have time to check that Stallman is using a very wide definition of coerced that captures most or all of whatever you are uncomfortable with and he is going to be technically correct on most if not all of his original points. That is completely in his style. And more to the issue at hand, these are questions that are irrelevant to Stallman's position as head of the FSF or his role in MIT. He is not using his position to push pro-adultery themes. He is calling on people to think about what words mean and what the implications of those meanings are. People can't kick up a stink for something that happened 10 years ago and claim that nothing has changed. Stallman is perfectly happy to stand up and say that he's changed his mind on many points. A couple of lines on a personal website are just not that insightful into his character. Also, whether alcohol or drugs should be available for consumption by anybody is still an open question. That is a different debate. Most of the arguments as to why a 10 year old shouldn't be drinking can actually be applied to a 40 year old. The major difference (brain development) is a big deal but there are a lot of other problems with addictive substances that are not age dependent. Why should it be acceptable for a 40 year old to drink but not a 10 year old? There are interesting aspects to consider there and to logically pin down the reasoning to a moral framework requires quite a bit of thought and probably discussion with others.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago

If I have the wrong opinion on the matter, will you assassinate my career for it regardless of the rationality of any argument I might make?

JaimeThompson 7y ago
How do you reach that conclusion from what I posted? If punishing people for the wrong ideas is wrong is RMS wrong for saying those who release closed source software are deserving of punishment?
- prirun 7y ago
  My guess is he means punished in the marketplace, ie, not buying proprietary software - not punish as in throw them in jail for buying/selling proprietary software. It's a perfect example of where our society seems to be heading. Taking words and sentences out of their context and publishing the fragments over and over leads to incomplete understanding and misinterpretation. To me, this is similar to the recent cases where some public figure said the N word 10 years ago, and so their present company fired them. Remember the phrase from childhood "Stick and stone may break my bones but words can never harm me." That's the principle of free speech. We sure don't have that anymore. If you are a media person and use the N word in your position, and it's against your employer's policy to do that, fine - you're fired. But if you personally are a racist or hate gays or whatever, that should be your choice, and if you say the N word to your neighbor and they record it, your employer should not be able to fire you. We have become way too sensitive IMO, and the fact that news is on 24/7 (they have to fill that time with something!) and is more about evoking feelings, spouting opinions and prophecies, and sensationalism than it is about facts, is a big part of the problem.