5 ms·

> A better anaology would be if the US implemented extreme Sharia law, how cavalier would people who don't want to live like that be? That's a very poor analog

> A better anaology would be if the US implemented extreme Sharia law, how cavalier would people who don't want to live like that be? That's a very poor analogy. Hong Kong citizens already enjoy the benefit of an independent legal system and don't have to live like mainland citizens. > They sure as hell didn't choose to lose their rights to a fair trial and freedom of expression either. They sure didn't. And they sure haven't lost those rights.

pimmen 7y ago
The protest was about the prospect of losing those rights, starting with being subject to mainland laws through extradition. The protest has then expanded to being against the CCP undermining ”one country, two systems” in general, an example of which would be Gui Minhai who’s serving time for a book he published in Hong Kong. So, I would say the analogy is still apt. The CCP control is being implemented which is what the protesters are against.
- UIZealot 7y ago
  > The CCP control is being implemented which is what the protesters are against. Really? How exactly is it being implemented? EDIT: Down-voters, can you answer the question? Or are you just going to try to bury it with down-votes?
  - RavlaAlvar 7y ago
    If you live in Hong Kong, you can definitely feel that over the years, CCP have been increasingly ramp up their influence on HK matters. CCP officials start to comment on internal HK matters, lobbying for government policy to pass in the legislative branch.
    - UIZealot 7y ago
      Influence? Certainly. Just like the UK could influence HK matters when it was a British colony, China can influence HK matters now that it's a Chinese special administrative region. Control? Not so much.
      - pimmen 7y ago
        Because the control is still being implemented. To implement it, you need influence.
        UIZealot 7y ago
        Again, how exactly is it being implemented? All you came up with is the extradition bill, and that, again, has been withdrawn.
  - pimmen 7y ago
    The extradition treaty subjecting people to some mainland laws is a step in that direction.
    - UIZealot 7y ago
      The extradition treaty has officially been withdrawn as a result of the protests. That alone should tell you that Hong Kong has been able to maintain substantial autonomy from the central Chinese government.
      - pimmen 7y ago
        After months of protests. That alone does not convince me. However, the fact that such a self destructive bill is even proposed by the pro-Beijing government in the first place alone convinces me that ”one country, two systems” is being hollowed out.
        UIZealot 7y ago
        > After months of protests. It was suspended almost immediately after initial protests. > self destructive bill That's a stretch. Personally I believe Ms. Lam proposed it out of good faith. It was too naive perhaps, and did not include adequate protection for Hong Kong citizens. It never would have survived the legco anyway, never mind the protests. Regarding one country, two systems. The Chinese government, to its credit, has largely kept its end of the bargain and allowed Hong Kong to govern itself, aside from making sure that the chief executive isn't actively anti-Beijing. Hong Kong people had never enjoyed as much freedom and autonomy as they do today, not under British rule, not ever. Some people are just too blinded by ideology to see that.
        spacehunt 7y ago
        I'm sorry but: - The last round of Legislative Council elections during British rule was effectively by universal suffrage.[1] No LegCo elections after the handover have been comparable. - During British rule, there were also municipal councils and again, council members were eventually elected by universal suffrage. After the handover the entire municipal council system was abolished. - Also during British rule, the Public Order Ordinance was found to violate the Bill of Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, especially regarding freedom of expression and assembly, and was amended accordingly. After the handover the amendments were repealed, resulting in a reduction of freedom of expression and assembly.[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Hong_Kong_electoral_reform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Hong_Kong_electoral_refor... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Order_Ordinance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Order_Ordinance
  - Legogris 7y ago
    There are several reports of people whom the CCP views as antagonistic having gone missing when flying into or through China. Bookshop owners, political activists and writers, for example. The strong reaction against the extradition bill comes to a large part out of (reasonable) fear that it will be abused as a tool to get rid of dissidents and pro-independence elements.
    - UIZealot 7y ago
      I'm only aware of Gui Minhai, a book store owner. He had to appear on TV in China and give a confession of guilt, but was afterwards free to go home. He is not missing. And he is not serving time, the GGP was mistaken. (EDIT: I stand corrected, if reports of his continuing detention in mainland China are true. His is certainly a curious, unfortunately, and extreme case. It does not take away from the fact that Hong Kong still has a functioning judiciary system independent from mainland China, and the vast vast majority of Hong Kong citizens have no reason to fear the same fate.) The extradition treaty has officially been withdrawn as a result of the protests. That alone should tell you that Hong Kong has been able to maintain substantial autonomy from the central Chinese government.
      - onemoresoop 7y ago
        After his release from prison, in October 2017, Gui Minhai has been under strict surveillance, living in a flat in Ningbo. His access to the internet and communication with the outside world has been limited, despite assurances from the Chinese authorities, on a number of occasions, that he was a ”free man and that the Swedish authorities could have any contact they wished with their fellow citizen”. Sweden’s Foreign Minister, Margot Wallström, made a statement saying that providing consular help to a Swedish citizen in need of medical care was ”perfectly in line with basic international rules, including the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations”. [0]: https://www.hongkongfp.com/2018/02/21/enough-forced-confessions-china-free-bookseller-gui-minhai-now/ https://www.hongkongfp.com/2018/02/21/enough-forced-confessi...
      - pimmen 7y ago
        He is still on the mainland. I’m Swedish by the way and follow his daughter, Angela Gui. His daughter has been given very limited access to her own father, and the Swedish Ministry of Foreign Affairs also has difficulty reaching him. For some reason, the CCP felt it necessary to use a Chinese businessman to try to make a deal with Ms. Gui where she would limit her media apperances and be given more contact with her father. Hardly respecting freedom of speech, in my own country no less. And, again, this was because of a bookstore owned in Hong Kong, not the mainland.

pimmen 7y ago

The protest was about the prospect of losing those rights, starting with being subject to mainland laws through extradition. The protest has then expanded to being against the CCP undermining ”one country, two systems” in general, an example of which would be Gui Minhai who’s serving time for a book he published in Hong Kong. So, I would say the analogy is still apt. The CCP control is being implemented which is what the protesters are against.

UIZealot 7y ago
> The CCP control is being implemented which is what the protesters are against. Really? How exactly is it being implemented? EDIT: Down-voters, can you answer the question? Or are you just going to try to bury it with down-votes?
- RavlaAlvar 7y ago
  If you live in Hong Kong, you can definitely feel that over the years, CCP have been increasingly ramp up their influence on HK matters. CCP officials start to comment on internal HK matters, lobbying for government policy to pass in the legislative branch.
  - UIZealot 7y ago
    Influence? Certainly. Just like the UK could influence HK matters when it was a British colony, China can influence HK matters now that it's a Chinese special administrative region. Control? Not so much.
    - pimmen 7y ago
      Because the control is still being implemented. To implement it, you need influence.
      - UIZealot 7y ago
        Again, how exactly is it being implemented? All you came up with is the extradition bill, and that, again, has been withdrawn.
- pimmen 7y ago
  The extradition treaty subjecting people to some mainland laws is a step in that direction.
  - UIZealot 7y ago
    The extradition treaty has officially been withdrawn as a result of the protests. That alone should tell you that Hong Kong has been able to maintain substantial autonomy from the central Chinese government.
    - pimmen 7y ago
      After months of protests. That alone does not convince me. However, the fact that such a self destructive bill is even proposed by the pro-Beijing government in the first place alone convinces me that ”one country, two systems” is being hollowed out.
      - UIZealot 7y ago
        > After months of protests. It was suspended almost immediately after initial protests. > self destructive bill That's a stretch. Personally I believe Ms. Lam proposed it out of good faith. It was too naive perhaps, and did not include adequate protection for Hong Kong citizens. It never would have survived the legco anyway, never mind the protests. Regarding one country, two systems. The Chinese government, to its credit, has largely kept its end of the bargain and allowed Hong Kong to govern itself, aside from making sure that the chief executive isn't actively anti-Beijing. Hong Kong people had never enjoyed as much freedom and autonomy as they do today, not under British rule, not ever. Some people are just too blinded by ideology to see that.
        spacehunt 7y ago
        I'm sorry but: - The last round of Legislative Council elections during British rule was effectively by universal suffrage.[1] No LegCo elections after the handover have been comparable. - During British rule, there were also municipal councils and again, council members were eventually elected by universal suffrage. After the handover the entire municipal council system was abolished. - Also during British rule, the Public Order Ordinance was found to violate the Bill of Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, especially regarding freedom of expression and assembly, and was amended accordingly. After the handover the amendments were repealed, resulting in a reduction of freedom of expression and assembly.[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Hong_Kong_electoral_reform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Hong_Kong_electoral_refor... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Order_Ordinance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Order_Ordinance
- Legogris 7y ago
  There are several reports of people whom the CCP views as antagonistic having gone missing when flying into or through China. Bookshop owners, political activists and writers, for example. The strong reaction against the extradition bill comes to a large part out of (reasonable) fear that it will be abused as a tool to get rid of dissidents and pro-independence elements.
  - UIZealot 7y ago
    I'm only aware of Gui Minhai, a book store owner. He had to appear on TV in China and give a confession of guilt, but was afterwards free to go home. He is not missing. And he is not serving time, the GGP was mistaken. (EDIT: I stand corrected, if reports of his continuing detention in mainland China are true. His is certainly a curious, unfortunately, and extreme case. It does not take away from the fact that Hong Kong still has a functioning judiciary system independent from mainland China, and the vast vast majority of Hong Kong citizens have no reason to fear the same fate.) The extradition treaty has officially been withdrawn as a result of the protests. That alone should tell you that Hong Kong has been able to maintain substantial autonomy from the central Chinese government.
    - onemoresoop 7y ago
      After his release from prison, in October 2017, Gui Minhai has been under strict surveillance, living in a flat in Ningbo. His access to the internet and communication with the outside world has been limited, despite assurances from the Chinese authorities, on a number of occasions, that he was a ”free man and that the Swedish authorities could have any contact they wished with their fellow citizen”. Sweden’s Foreign Minister, Margot Wallström, made a statement saying that providing consular help to a Swedish citizen in need of medical care was ”perfectly in line with basic international rules, including the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations”. [0]: https://www.hongkongfp.com/2018/02/21/enough-forced-confessions-china-free-bookseller-gui-minhai-now/ https://www.hongkongfp.com/2018/02/21/enough-forced-confessi...
    - pimmen 7y ago
      He is still on the mainland. I’m Swedish by the way and follow his daughter, Angela Gui. His daughter has been given very limited access to her own father, and the Swedish Ministry of Foreign Affairs also has difficulty reaching him. For some reason, the CCP felt it necessary to use a Chinese businessman to try to make a deal with Ms. Gui where she would limit her media apperances and be given more contact with her father. Hardly respecting freedom of speech, in my own country no less. And, again, this was because of a bookstore owned in Hong Kong, not the mainland.