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That's great! I don't understand the rather negative introduction in the article. Indaba seems to be about getting people up to speed with the basics of ML, Ne

That's great! I don't understand the rather negative introduction in the article. Indaba seems to be about getting people up to speed with the basics of ML, NeurIPS and other ML conferences are about cutting-edge research. Both have an importance place. Why the distinction about Western vs non-Western AI? This isn't an alternative, it's a way to bootstrap research in Africa. And that's amazing. But the narrative that there's tension between the two and that somehow African AI is "other" and won't find a place in "Western AI" when the research is world-class is totally absurd and does African researchers a massive disservice. Yes, Africa is under-represented at international AI conferences. But that's a consequence of many things (imperialism, oppression, economics, etc.), not the somewhat-impartial double-blind review system we have. I wish people would tell a more inclusive and positive story rather than manufacture some conflict where there is none.

thewarrior 7y ago
Visa policies create exclusion by their very existence. So its not entirely an unfair assumption. For those who are unaware visa policies are extremely discriminatory to people from African countries. You will not even be granted a tourist visa or even be allowed to attend a tech conference. You are stuck where you are born.
- taliesinb 7y ago
  Case in point from today’s Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/oct/01/oxford-professors-children-refused-visas-to-join-her-in-uk https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/oct/01/oxford-pro...
- LunaSea 7y ago
  I'm guessing that is done to prevent people from overstaying their visa.
  - mandelbrotwurst 7y ago
    You're saying that governments create visas to prevent people from overstaying their visas? Lol.
    - LunaSea 7y ago
      No, I'm saying that people from certain countries have a tough time getting visas because their co-nationals have a habit of overstaying their visa as a form of immigration. Thus making the host country clamp down on issuing visas.
      - yourbandsucks 7y ago
        Certain countries like Ireland? Hmmm... I wonder when that clampdown on Irish visa grants is coming..
- xvedejas 7y ago
  This is why ICLR will be held in Ethiopia next year. It's a known problem in the ML research community.
- jolotriage 7y ago
  African natural resources on the other hand glide across western international borders effortlessly.
adamsea 7y ago
IMHO the beginning of the article wasn't about bootstrapping research in Africa, but was about how researchers there are unable to get visas or afford to travel to AI conferences.
michaelscott 7y ago
> But the narrative that there's tension between the two and that somehow African AI is "other" and won't find a place in "Western AI" when the research is world-class is totally absurd and does African researchers a massive disservice. This tension doesn't really come from the specific communities, it comes from the freedom to travel as mentioned in other comments (i.e. it's incredibly difficult not only financially but also in terms of visas and access to countries where conferences take place). That just (unintentionally or not) automatically excludes African "voices", thereby turning them into the "other". It's therefore a little disingenuous to say that there's no conflict or that it's manufactured; any African academic or tech speaker can tell you there's plenty of conflict in simply applying for a visa to Europe, for example.
- whatshisface 7y ago
  >That just (unintentionally or not) automatically excludes African "voices", thereby turning them into the "other". African researchers can still publish and read in English, it would be extremely unlikely for the two areas of research to evolve independently. Look at American and Soviet research during the cold war - there was a huge language and political barrier, but the Soviets didn't end up with a unique scientific system.
  - Mediterraneo10 7y ago
    A lot of things did evolve differently in the USSR. For example in linguistics the Soviet Union widely adopted the strange doctrine of Marrism, only to overturn it later. During the Stalinist era it was well-nigh impossible to cite contemporaneous publications from non-Communist countries, as it was seen as aiding the bourgeois enemy. (It was more acceptable to cite pre-1917 publications from the West, though.) Even after the Khrushchev Thaw, there was still a policy that researchers cite mainly their compatriots, and cite Western publications only when absolutely necessary. In some fields of linguistics and archaeology, this did result in the USSR taking a very different course in those disciplines than in the West. In fact, the divide is still palpable today, though now it is no longer a matter of not being allow to cite Western works, rather it is down to 1) the influence of elderly Communist-era faculty who by inertia preserve the old restrictions, and 2) Russian universities being unable to afford Western academic books that can cost into the hundreds of euro.

thewarrior 7y ago

Visa policies create exclusion by their very existence. So its not entirely an unfair assumption. For those who are unaware visa policies are extremely discriminatory to people from African countries. You will not even be granted a tourist visa or even be allowed to attend a tech conference. You are stuck where you are born.

taliesinb 7y ago
Case in point from today’s Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/oct/01/oxford-professors-children-refused-visas-to-join-her-in-uk https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/oct/01/oxford-pro...
LunaSea 7y ago
I'm guessing that is done to prevent people from overstaying their visa.
- mandelbrotwurst 7y ago
  You're saying that governments create visas to prevent people from overstaying their visas? Lol.
  - LunaSea 7y ago
    No, I'm saying that people from certain countries have a tough time getting visas because their co-nationals have a habit of overstaying their visa as a form of immigration. Thus making the host country clamp down on issuing visas.
    - yourbandsucks 7y ago
      Certain countries like Ireland? Hmmm... I wonder when that clampdown on Irish visa grants is coming..
xvedejas 7y ago
This is why ICLR will be held in Ethiopia next year. It's a known problem in the ML research community.
jolotriage 7y ago
African natural resources on the other hand glide across western international borders effortlessly.

adamsea 7y ago

IMHO the beginning of the article wasn't about bootstrapping research in Africa, but was about how researchers there are unable to get visas or afford to travel to AI conferences.

michaelscott 7y ago

> But the narrative that there's tension between the two and that somehow African AI is "other" and won't find a place in "Western AI" when the research is world-class is totally absurd and does African researchers a massive disservice. This tension doesn't really come from the specific communities, it comes from the freedom to travel as mentioned in other comments (i.e. it's incredibly difficult not only financially but also in terms of visas and access to countries where conferences take place). That just (unintentionally or not) automatically excludes African "voices", thereby turning them into the "other". It's therefore a little disingenuous to say that there's no conflict or that it's manufactured; any African academic or tech speaker can tell you there's plenty of conflict in simply applying for a visa to Europe, for example.

whatshisface 7y ago
>That just (unintentionally or not) automatically excludes African "voices", thereby turning them into the "other". African researchers can still publish and read in English, it would be extremely unlikely for the two areas of research to evolve independently. Look at American and Soviet research during the cold war - there was a huge language and political barrier, but the Soviets didn't end up with a unique scientific system.
- Mediterraneo10 7y ago
  A lot of things did evolve differently in the USSR. For example in linguistics the Soviet Union widely adopted the strange doctrine of Marrism, only to overturn it later. During the Stalinist era it was well-nigh impossible to cite contemporaneous publications from non-Communist countries, as it was seen as aiding the bourgeois enemy. (It was more acceptable to cite pre-1917 publications from the West, though.) Even after the Khrushchev Thaw, there was still a policy that researchers cite mainly their compatriots, and cite Western publications only when absolutely necessary. In some fields of linguistics and archaeology, this did result in the USSR taking a very different course in those disciplines than in the West. In fact, the divide is still palpable today, though now it is no longer a matter of not being allow to cite Western works, rather it is down to 1) the influence of elderly Communist-era faculty who by inertia preserve the old restrictions, and 2) Russian universities being unable to afford Western academic books that can cost into the hundreds of euro.