5 ms·

Hong Kong Police Shoot a Protester, 18, with a Live Bullet for the First Time

74 points by smacktoward 7y ago

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
focom 7y ago
Hope this will change the perception of the behavior of mainland china over HK. Wish them to succeed in being a democratic island.
- eugeniub 7y ago
  It's not an island.
  - pwinnski 7y ago
    Hong Kong Island[0] is well-named. [0] https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hong+Kong+Island/ https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hong+Kong+Island/
  - KirinDave 7y ago
    I'm morbidly fascinated by what you thought you meant to say here.
    - pricees 7y ago
      I am going to reach and say that the poster means to describe Hong Kong as Kowloon & Hong Kong Island. I have never been there, I am just here to try clarifying.
      - pwinnski 7y ago
        I've been there a few times. My fiancee was born and raised on Hong Kong. It's true that the protests also involve the Kowloon side, and even the New Territories, but it's also perfectly reasonable to refer to Hong Kong as an island, because everything else isn't actually Hong Kong proper.
- pjc50 7y ago
  How? Remember there isn't a pro-democracy media in China; people are just as likely to cheer a robust intervention against the seperatists and disruptors.
kace91 7y ago
This piece of news isn't really visible, to the degree I think it should (at least in my country). I worry that, if the Chinese government feels that their escalation isn't causing much noise on the international stage, they'll take that as an ok sign to continue...
- bpt3 7y ago
  It seems to be getting a lot of attention outside of China. I think the shooting will be seen as completely justified since the police officer was under attack and appeared to use non-lethal force to defend himself, so China won't see much of a negative response from other nations.
  - KirinDave 7y ago
    I think citizens in nations like the US who generally support police violence at scale will probably think like you do and suggest an agent of a government that is effectively foreign to Hong Kong was "defending himself" while attempting to disperse a group of protesters advocating for self rule at the behest of aforementioned government.
    - bpt3 7y ago
      I'm going to ignore the implied insults in your response and clarify my position, which I don't think is controversial or held only by citizens of nations that you believe "generally support police violence at scale": Any person (or other living being for that matter) that is being hit with a pipe by an attacker has the right to defend themselves from that person.
      - KirinDave 7y ago
        I just don't see how you can map someone trying to break up a pro democracy demonstration as an innocent trying to protect themselves from an attack. He's a civil officer armed with lethal force. The protesters had blunt objects. If you enter into a conflict bearing deadly force you either must be prepared to kill or withdraw your presence. It is not some accident that the police officer was there.
vnchr 7y ago
Closeup video of the shooting: https://streamable.com/2hei6 https://streamable.com/2hei6 Longer video of the shooting: https://streamable.com/qtyii https://streamable.com/qtyii
noego 7y ago
> In the video, the protester who was shot is first seen joining a black-clad mob of people who chase a riot officer and tackle him to the ground. They kick him and beat him with what appear to be metal pipes. > At one point, the protester approaches a second police officer who is standing nearby with a handgun drawn. Just after the protester hits the officer with the pipe, the officer fires at the man at point-blank range. I'm just as pro-democracy as the next guy, but I can hardly fault a police officer for shooting someone in the shoulder when they are being hit with a metal pipe. I hope the pro-democracy movement in HK returns to its origins of peaceful demonstrations. I don't think its good for the movement's long-term sustainability to turn violent.
- KirinDave 7y ago
  > I'm just as pro-democracy as the next guy, but I can hardly fault a police officer for shooting someone in the shoulder when they are being hit with a metal pipe. I mean, they could run away. The police are there to enforce a new State order. A lot of people don't want that order. > I hope the pro-democracy movement in HK returns to its origins of peaceful demonstrations. I don't think its good for the movement's long-term sustainability to turn violent. Well, there's absolutely no hope of a non-violent movement bringing democracy to a state capitalist society. It's never happened, it never will happen. It requires States, which organizationally have diffuse self-preservation functions, to give up power. It's not even clear they can do that. People aren't seeking centrist American approval, they're seeking to self-govern rather than be handed from one massive military power to another. Americans and many Europeans generally approve of violent police action, which killed 998 people in the US in 2018. Many in shot isolated situations that in no way resemble the wide scale resistance of Hong Kong's pro-democratic movements. I suppose we should applaud HK police's forbearance up until this point, from the western perspective. American cops would just open fire and then gleefully make up lies about the nature of the demonstrations or their supporters.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    >American cops would just open fire and then gleefully make up lies about the nature of the demonstrations or their supporters. You say that but since the 90s there has been a concerted effort to not let federal law enforcement escalate to that point (at least in group situations like this). In small swat team type situations they can be very trigger happy but in an ongoing clash like this the politicians would (and have) hold the cops to a reasonable ROE. Edit: Federal law enforcement
supernova87a 7y ago
As saddened I am by this, I would like to point out, though, that the protest movement has quickly become just like Occupy, where there are now significant pockets of people taking advantage of the movement to simply cause chaos and unrest unrelated to advocating responsibly for change. Perhaps they have some remotely legitimate grievance, but more so they're bent on taking advantage of the situation to break windows, hurl petrol bombs, etc. because they're "young and restless". It is difficult for the police and government to distinguish which is which until every Saturday night when the "action" erupts. How is a movement to handle these types of actors in their midst?
ngcc_hk 7y ago
there is no jusificafion to use gun as argued by an open letter of the Public Doctor Association. Use of gun by the police is a right that need support of the community via law and court. If you can shoot people like that (and not just him there are several other shooting), you have to ask why people has to accept you to have gun. We do not have. Do we trust the system the police will investigate the case of their own kind? If not, should we go to jungle law. Unjust shooting and police violence in many places (like USA and uk) lead to real riot. The system may break down. I hope the police and the government understand how serious the situation could develop. More importantly it is human rights ignored by the police. Just watch a video of police holding a video camera on a market asking everyone to look at the camera. Then saying you are all rubbish. Another one is about cursing of reporter and if you not go they said they will shoot you like the Indonesian reporter. There are million coming out yesterday. They should just we go. It is always peaceful if the Police do not overreact. they did. There is no excuse. Fighting yes but gun shoot no. If the police do not want chaos and even revenge, have to walk back to what they do just 6 months ago. If not, I am afraid I would advice none if you to Hong Kong. Three finger up : if we are burnt, you will burn with us ... is not just a slogan of a movie. It has been used by the protestor from day one. Good luck. God bless Hong Kong. We are all Human. We are not cockroaches.

74 points by smacktoward 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Hope this will change the perception of the behavior of mainland china over HK. Wish them to succeed in being a democratic island.

eugeniub 7y ago
It's not an island.
- pwinnski 7y ago
  Hong Kong Island[0] is well-named. [0] https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hong+Kong+Island/ https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hong+Kong+Island/
- KirinDave 7y ago
  I'm morbidly fascinated by what you thought you meant to say here.
  - pricees 7y ago
    I am going to reach and say that the poster means to describe Hong Kong as Kowloon & Hong Kong Island. I have never been there, I am just here to try clarifying.
    - pwinnski 7y ago
      I've been there a few times. My fiancee was born and raised on Hong Kong. It's true that the protests also involve the Kowloon side, and even the New Territories, but it's also perfectly reasonable to refer to Hong Kong as an island, because everything else isn't actually Hong Kong proper.
pjc50 7y ago
How? Remember there isn't a pro-democracy media in China; people are just as likely to cheer a robust intervention against the seperatists and disruptors.

kace91 7y ago

This piece of news isn't really visible, to the degree I think it should (at least in my country). I worry that, if the Chinese government feels that their escalation isn't causing much noise on the international stage, they'll take that as an ok sign to continue...

bpt3 7y ago
It seems to be getting a lot of attention outside of China. I think the shooting will be seen as completely justified since the police officer was under attack and appeared to use non-lethal force to defend himself, so China won't see much of a negative response from other nations.
- KirinDave 7y ago
  I think citizens in nations like the US who generally support police violence at scale will probably think like you do and suggest an agent of a government that is effectively foreign to Hong Kong was "defending himself" while attempting to disperse a group of protesters advocating for self rule at the behest of aforementioned government.
  - bpt3 7y ago
    I'm going to ignore the implied insults in your response and clarify my position, which I don't think is controversial or held only by citizens of nations that you believe "generally support police violence at scale": Any person (or other living being for that matter) that is being hit with a pipe by an attacker has the right to defend themselves from that person.
    - KirinDave 7y ago
      I just don't see how you can map someone trying to break up a pro democracy demonstration as an innocent trying to protect themselves from an attack. He's a civil officer armed with lethal force. The protesters had blunt objects. If you enter into a conflict bearing deadly force you either must be prepared to kill or withdraw your presence. It is not some accident that the police officer was there.

vnchr 7y ago

Closeup video of the shooting: https://streamable.com/2hei6 https://streamable.com/2hei6 Longer video of the shooting: https://streamable.com/qtyii https://streamable.com/qtyii

noego 7y ago

> In the video, the protester who was shot is first seen joining a black-clad mob of people who chase a riot officer and tackle him to the ground. They kick him and beat him with what appear to be metal pipes. > At one point, the protester approaches a second police officer who is standing nearby with a handgun drawn. Just after the protester hits the officer with the pipe, the officer fires at the man at point-blank range. I'm just as pro-democracy as the next guy, but I can hardly fault a police officer for shooting someone in the shoulder when they are being hit with a metal pipe. I hope the pro-democracy movement in HK returns to its origins of peaceful demonstrations. I don't think its good for the movement's long-term sustainability to turn violent.

KirinDave 7y ago
> I'm just as pro-democracy as the next guy, but I can hardly fault a police officer for shooting someone in the shoulder when they are being hit with a metal pipe. I mean, they could run away. The police are there to enforce a new State order. A lot of people don't want that order. > I hope the pro-democracy movement in HK returns to its origins of peaceful demonstrations. I don't think its good for the movement's long-term sustainability to turn violent. Well, there's absolutely no hope of a non-violent movement bringing democracy to a state capitalist society. It's never happened, it never will happen. It requires States, which organizationally have diffuse self-preservation functions, to give up power. It's not even clear they can do that. People aren't seeking centrist American approval, they're seeking to self-govern rather than be handed from one massive military power to another. Americans and many Europeans generally approve of violent police action, which killed 998 people in the US in 2018. Many in shot isolated situations that in no way resemble the wide scale resistance of Hong Kong's pro-democratic movements. I suppose we should applaud HK police's forbearance up until this point, from the western perspective. American cops would just open fire and then gleefully make up lies about the nature of the demonstrations or their supporters.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  >American cops would just open fire and then gleefully make up lies about the nature of the demonstrations or their supporters. You say that but since the 90s there has been a concerted effort to not let federal law enforcement escalate to that point (at least in group situations like this). In small swat team type situations they can be very trigger happy but in an ongoing clash like this the politicians would (and have) hold the cops to a reasonable ROE. Edit: Federal law enforcement

supernova87a 7y ago

As saddened I am by this, I would like to point out, though, that the protest movement has quickly become just like Occupy, where there are now significant pockets of people taking advantage of the movement to simply cause chaos and unrest unrelated to advocating responsibly for change. Perhaps they have some remotely legitimate grievance, but more so they're bent on taking advantage of the situation to break windows, hurl petrol bombs, etc. because they're "young and restless". It is difficult for the police and government to distinguish which is which until every Saturday night when the "action" erupts. How is a movement to handle these types of actors in their midst?

ngcc_hk 7y ago

there is no jusificafion to use gun as argued by an open letter of the Public Doctor Association. Use of gun by the police is a right that need support of the community via law and court. If you can shoot people like that (and not just him there are several other shooting), you have to ask why people has to accept you to have gun. We do not have. Do we trust the system the police will investigate the case of their own kind? If not, should we go to jungle law. Unjust shooting and police violence in many places (like USA and uk) lead to real riot. The system may break down. I hope the police and the government understand how serious the situation could develop. More importantly it is human rights ignored by the police. Just watch a video of police holding a video camera on a market asking everyone to look at the camera. Then saying you are all rubbish. Another one is about cursing of reporter and if you not go they said they will shoot you like the Indonesian reporter. There are million coming out yesterday. They should just we go. It is always peaceful if the Police do not overreact. they did. There is no excuse. Fighting yes but gun shoot no. If the police do not want chaos and even revenge, have to walk back to what they do just 6 months ago. If not, I am afraid I would advice none if you to Hong Kong. Three finger up : if we are burnt, you will burn with us ... is not just a slogan of a movie. It has been used by the protestor from day one. Good luck. God bless Hong Kong. We are all Human. We are not cockroaches.