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I work at GitLab. I work in NYC so my salary is "NYC based". If I moved to a lower cost region my salary would drop. So would a lot of my expenses. I'm okay wit

by lbotos 7y ago

I work at GitLab. I work in NYC so my salary is "NYC based". If I moved to a lower cost region my salary would drop. So would a lot of my expenses. I'm okay with this. Do I move? No, because I like being in NYC. I have coworkers in Nebraska. They make a different amount than I. They also have and own a house on that salary. Do they move? No, they like it in Nebraska. It is not GitLab's job as a large remote company to "fix" global economics. GitLab is a "small multinational". If you look at other multinationals (or even large nationals) like Google Microsoft, GE, Comcast, etc, I'm 100% positive you'll find that they don't pay the same in different cities. It's no different. One step at a time. GitLab is offering remote. In 10 years, if local economies level out more due to globalization, this can be less of an issue. Until then, I'll just keep reading this argument on HN...

pingyong 7y ago
The calculator is fun to play with, but as someone from Europe, goddamn what's going on in San Fransisco? You get almost double the salaries compared to Germany/Sweden etc., and significantly more than in NYC - rent must be insane!
- GhettoMaestro 7y ago
  Yes. Rent in SF is off the charts. Also they (California in general) have a major homeless (housing) crises. Lots of NIMBYs blocking new building developments because of "their view".
- lunchables 7y ago
  Yes - it is absolutely insane: https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/san-francisco/ https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/sa... (Note that is ~700 sq feet, not meters) But, you also make literally twice as much money, so it easily offsets the extra rent.
  - souprock 7y ago
    This is the case for people with little need for space. If you are happy to rent a room and you don't need a parking spot, you get a great deal. Investments and mail-order items aren't any more expensive in San Francisco. Local expenses like food are break-even with a 2x price increase. For people who need space, just forget it. House prices are roughly 10x higher than in the ordinary small cities, ignoring the difference in land area. Families need the space. I know a former San Francisco resident, now in Florida, with enough space to raise sheep and shoot an AR-15 in his yard. He's not rich. He earns a salary as a good software developer, and he decided to buy that kind of space. It's 11 acres if I remember right. He couldn't have that in San Francisco, even earning literally twice as much money.
- Kiro 7y ago
  They are not even hiring in Sweden (why not?). Is that a typo or did you manage to select Sweden somehow?
lexapro 7y ago
If the office is in NYC, the company operates in the NYC labor market. And the rent for the office building will be set by the NYC market as well. Gitlab doesn't have these constraints. They could pay the same, they just don't want to.
- marvin 7y ago
  And they don’t have enough competition for this global labor pool.
buboard 7y ago
Your argument will make less and less sense over time, as it s not globalisation but remote work that will equalise those wages of the IT sector. What you say sounds resonable today, but not in 2 years, as remote workers become more sought after, valuable and demanding
- a_imho 7y ago
  Your argument will make less and less sense over time Imagine someone making the argument it is OK to pay less for X class of people, because we can get away with it. X being some historically marginalized, but now protected class. And they should be grateful because some other place pays even less! It would be really nice if remote discriminating companies could not be called equal opportunity employer at the very least.
vasco 7y ago
I also work for a remote company, and my salary is not tied to location. I've lived in 3 countries since working for the company, and for me it makes sense that my salary doesn't change, I get what I get based on my experience and performance, not the place I happen to live at the moment.
- lbotos 7y ago
  Cool! - What company? - What role? - What's your comp range indexed to? - VC Backed?
  - vasco 7y ago
    Hotjar. SRE Team Lead. Ranges are defined by the company based on the overall job market in large European cities. Not VC backed.
    - lbotos 7y ago
      For those reading along I took a look at their hiring page: https://careers.hotjar.com/o/customer-support-americas https://careers.hotjar.com/o/customer-support-americas - this role is $45,000 to $62,000 (looking for EST, would be hired as a contractor) https://about.gitlab.com/job-families/engineering/dotcom-support/ https://about.gitlab.com/job-families/engineering/dotcom-sup... For intermediate (of which you can go to senior) and you'd be an employee of GitLab in the US, so no dealing with self-employment tax etc) - Florida $46,740 - $57,126 - Raleigh $54,940 - $67,148 - NYC $63,140 - $77,172 Very comparable except in NYC which is a higher cost of living. I'd love more data. I know Basecamp is doing the "everyone indexed to Chicago" which means that most regions are getting a little bit more purchasing power.
      - nxoxn 7y ago
        From my own experience in Raleigh: Entry level = $65,000 Mid level = $85,000 I would be quite let down with the pay range you have mentioned.
wolco 7y ago
It sounds like a fair policy. Why not live it up in some of the most expensive locals in the world?
throwaway413 7y ago
This argument of “fixing economies” is an invalid premise - Gitlab is a distributed company, they don’t bear the costs of operating a business in each of those locales. The business operating costs, nor revenue, are tied to locale. Why are salaries then? Because it is cheaper to pay the Nebraska guy a discounted $80k instead of paying everyone the same NYC rate of $140k, and use “local economy” as the scapegoat. If they were a brick and mortar business operating in all these regions, fine, costs vary and it makes sense that salaries would too. But they are just using the excuse of locale to grow their margins, simple as that. It’s their business, and employees can work wherever they want. But let’s not pretend they are doing anyone any favors with that policy.
- pulse7 7y ago
  Maybe you can move to NY for a month, get employed by GitLab for $140k and then work remote from Nebraska... :-)
  - milkytron 7y ago
    I know people who did this with a bank I used to work for. Moved to NYC to get higher pay, stayed there for ~1.5 years. Then moved to Wilmington, Delaware (lots of banks there) where the cost of living is much lower but retained the same salary and compensation package.
a_imho 7y ago
I'm happy you are at the good end of the status quo, but until people are offered to work anywhere they want before salaries are factored for location it is not remote work just good old exploitation. https://elsajohansson.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/what-does-a-wage-gap-look-like/ https://elsajohansson.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/what-does-a-w...
overthemoon 7y ago
"Different amount". It's less. On the contrary, as a participant in global economics it has a responsibility to pay its workers fairly. No one is asking them to "fix" the economy, just to not perpetuate unfair hiring and salary practices like regional salary limits. The work you do is worth it to GitLab or it's not. The value of the work doesn't change whether it's done in Nebraska or New York or Amsterdam.
- lbotos 7y ago
  Your argument here is the crux of the issue: what is "fair pay" for workers? For Tech, is is "SF Rates"? Or are SF Rates inflated because of market dynamics in the region? Here's Glassdoor info about Google. I chose the following cities because Glassdoor said they had "high confidence". Consider it anecdotal: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Software-Engineer-San-Francisco-Salaries-EJI_IE9079.0,6_KO7,24_IL.25,38_IM759.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Software-Engineer-Sa... https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Software-Engineer-Toronto-Salaries-EJI_IE9079.0,6_KO7,24_IL.25,32_IM976.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Software-Engineer-To... https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Software-Engineer-Bangalore-Salaries-EJI_IE9079.0,6_KO7,24_IL.25,34_IM1091.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Software-Engineer-Ba... - Glassdoor San Francisco SWE - "AVG Base - $129,065" - GitLab Average at Intermediate: $160,000 - Glassdoor Bangalore Google SWE - ₹1,691,257 current exchange == $23,785.84 - GitLab Average at Intermediate: ₹3,406,961 - Glassdoor Toronto SWE Google - $119,055 CAD current exchange == $89,925.81 - GitLab Average at Intermediate: $114,075 CAD (This doesn't account "perks" and RSUs and such which I assume Google's are larger, so Google comp can probably be 20-40% higher. Consider doing a search of your own with $company of your choice to compare.) ---- Do I want to live in a world where everyone gets paid the exact same for the same work, and everything costs the same everywhere because we have perfectly efficient markets, absolutely. Do I think companies are dumb for making competitive wages for local markets? Not at all. We live the majority of our life in a local market. Can workers find companies that are "outliers" that will pay them the same for their work no matter where they are? Yep. Do I think that due to globalization and a remote work force over time we will have more evenly distributed salary. Yep. All I want is for you (and others) to bring the same vigor for salary to any tech company thread as people do to GitLab's. We are a tech company that built our compensation model like many other tech companies (and other global companies). We also allow you to work where you live and want to pay a wage that is respectable in that region. Just like Google. The next time a thread comes up for any company on HN, I want anyone reading's first thought to be: "I wonder if they pay people the same in different cities?" Let's talk about it more than just in GitLab threads, and we can start that acceleration towards perfect salary around the world. Edit: I think it goes without saying, but I wanna be abundantly clear, these thoughts are my own, and I'm a longstanding member of this community first, and an employee of GitLab second. No one asked me to go on this rant this AM, I was just tired.

by lbotos 7y ago

pingyong 7y ago

The calculator is fun to play with, but as someone from Europe, goddamn what's going on in San Fransisco? You get almost double the salaries compared to Germany/Sweden etc., and significantly more than in NYC - rent must be insane!

GhettoMaestro 7y ago
Yes. Rent in SF is off the charts. Also they (California in general) have a major homeless (housing) crises. Lots of NIMBYs blocking new building developments because of "their view".
lunchables 7y ago
Yes - it is absolutely insane: https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/san-francisco/ https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/sa... (Note that is ~700 sq feet, not meters) But, you also make literally twice as much money, so it easily offsets the extra rent.
- souprock 7y ago
  This is the case for people with little need for space. If you are happy to rent a room and you don't need a parking spot, you get a great deal. Investments and mail-order items aren't any more expensive in San Francisco. Local expenses like food are break-even with a 2x price increase. For people who need space, just forget it. House prices are roughly 10x higher than in the ordinary small cities, ignoring the difference in land area. Families need the space. I know a former San Francisco resident, now in Florida, with enough space to raise sheep and shoot an AR-15 in his yard. He's not rich. He earns a salary as a good software developer, and he decided to buy that kind of space. It's 11 acres if I remember right. He couldn't have that in San Francisco, even earning literally twice as much money.
Kiro 7y ago
They are not even hiring in Sweden (why not?). Is that a typo or did you manage to select Sweden somehow?

lexapro 7y ago

If the office is in NYC, the company operates in the NYC labor market. And the rent for the office building will be set by the NYC market as well. Gitlab doesn't have these constraints. They could pay the same, they just don't want to.

marvin 7y ago
And they don’t have enough competition for this global labor pool.

buboard 7y ago

Your argument will make less and less sense over time, as it s not globalisation but remote work that will equalise those wages of the IT sector. What you say sounds resonable today, but not in 2 years, as remote workers become more sought after, valuable and demanding

a_imho 7y ago
Your argument will make less and less sense over time Imagine someone making the argument it is OK to pay less for X class of people, because we can get away with it. X being some historically marginalized, but now protected class. And they should be grateful because some other place pays even less! It would be really nice if remote discriminating companies could not be called equal opportunity employer at the very least.

vasco 7y ago

I also work for a remote company, and my salary is not tied to location. I've lived in 3 countries since working for the company, and for me it makes sense that my salary doesn't change, I get what I get based on my experience and performance, not the place I happen to live at the moment.

lbotos 7y ago
Cool! - What company? - What role? - What's your comp range indexed to? - VC Backed?
- vasco 7y ago
  Hotjar. SRE Team Lead. Ranges are defined by the company based on the overall job market in large European cities. Not VC backed.
  - lbotos 7y ago
    For those reading along I took a look at their hiring page: https://careers.hotjar.com/o/customer-support-americas https://careers.hotjar.com/o/customer-support-americas - this role is $45,000 to $62,000 (looking for EST, would be hired as a contractor) https://about.gitlab.com/job-families/engineering/dotcom-support/ https://about.gitlab.com/job-families/engineering/dotcom-sup... For intermediate (of which you can go to senior) and you'd be an employee of GitLab in the US, so no dealing with self-employment tax etc) - Florida $46,740 - $57,126 - Raleigh $54,940 - $67,148 - NYC $63,140 - $77,172 Very comparable except in NYC which is a higher cost of living. I'd love more data. I know Basecamp is doing the "everyone indexed to Chicago" which means that most regions are getting a little bit more purchasing power.
    - nxoxn 7y ago
      From my own experience in Raleigh: Entry level = $65,000 Mid level = $85,000 I would be quite let down with the pay range you have mentioned.

wolco 7y ago

It sounds like a fair policy. Why not live it up in some of the most expensive locals in the world?

throwaway413 7y ago

This argument of “fixing economies” is an invalid premise - Gitlab is a distributed company, they don’t bear the costs of operating a business in each of those locales. The business operating costs, nor revenue, are tied to locale. Why are salaries then? Because it is cheaper to pay the Nebraska guy a discounted $80k instead of paying everyone the same NYC rate of $140k, and use “local economy” as the scapegoat. If they were a brick and mortar business operating in all these regions, fine, costs vary and it makes sense that salaries would too. But they are just using the excuse of locale to grow their margins, simple as that. It’s their business, and employees can work wherever they want. But let’s not pretend they are doing anyone any favors with that policy.

pulse7 7y ago
Maybe you can move to NY for a month, get employed by GitLab for $140k and then work remote from Nebraska... :-)
- milkytron 7y ago
  I know people who did this with a bank I used to work for. Moved to NYC to get higher pay, stayed there for ~1.5 years. Then moved to Wilmington, Delaware (lots of banks there) where the cost of living is much lower but retained the same salary and compensation package.

a_imho 7y ago

I'm happy you are at the good end of the status quo, but until people are offered to work anywhere they want before salaries are factored for location it is not remote work just good old exploitation. https://elsajohansson.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/what-does-a-wage-gap-look-like/ https://elsajohansson.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/what-does-a-w...

overthemoon 7y ago

"Different amount". It's less. On the contrary, as a participant in global economics it has a responsibility to pay its workers fairly. No one is asking them to "fix" the economy, just to not perpetuate unfair hiring and salary practices like regional salary limits. The work you do is worth it to GitLab or it's not. The value of the work doesn't change whether it's done in Nebraska or New York or Amsterdam.

lbotos 7y ago
Your argument here is the crux of the issue: what is "fair pay" for workers? For Tech, is is "SF Rates"? Or are SF Rates inflated because of market dynamics in the region? Here's Glassdoor info about Google. I chose the following cities because Glassdoor said they had "high confidence". Consider it anecdotal: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Software-Engineer-San-Francisco-Salaries-EJI_IE9079.0,6_KO7,24_IL.25,38_IM759.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Software-Engineer-Sa... https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Software-Engineer-Toronto-Salaries-EJI_IE9079.0,6_KO7,24_IL.25,32_IM976.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Software-Engineer-To... https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Software-Engineer-Bangalore-Salaries-EJI_IE9079.0,6_KO7,24_IL.25,34_IM1091.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Software-Engineer-Ba... - Glassdoor San Francisco SWE - "AVG Base - $129,065" - GitLab Average at Intermediate: $160,000 - Glassdoor Bangalore Google SWE - ₹1,691,257 current exchange == $23,785.84 - GitLab Average at Intermediate: ₹3,406,961 - Glassdoor Toronto SWE Google - $119,055 CAD current exchange == $89,925.81 - GitLab Average at Intermediate: $114,075 CAD (This doesn't account "perks" and RSUs and such which I assume Google's are larger, so Google comp can probably be 20-40% higher. Consider doing a search of your own with $company of your choice to compare.) ---- Do I want to live in a world where everyone gets paid the exact same for the same work, and everything costs the same everywhere because we have perfectly efficient markets, absolutely. Do I think companies are dumb for making competitive wages for local markets? Not at all. We live the majority of our life in a local market. Can workers find companies that are "outliers" that will pay them the same for their work no matter where they are? Yep. Do I think that due to globalization and a remote work force over time we will have more evenly distributed salary. Yep. All I want is for you (and others) to bring the same vigor for salary to any tech company thread as people do to GitLab's. We are a tech company that built our compensation model like many other tech companies (and other global companies). We also allow you to work where you live and want to pay a wage that is respectable in that region. Just like Google. The next time a thread comes up for any company on HN, I want anyone reading's first thought to be: "I wonder if they pay people the same in different cities?" Let's talk about it more than just in GitLab threads, and we can start that acceleration towards perfect salary around the world. Edit: I think it goes without saying, but I wanna be abundantly clear, these thoughts are my own, and I'm a longstanding member of this community first, and an employee of GitLab second. No one asked me to go on this rant this AM, I was just tired.