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> “I'm scouting for companies who are all remote because they have a much easier time attracting and retaining talent” Is there any data to support this, espec

by mlthoughts2018 7y ago

> “I'm scouting for companies who are all remote because they have a much easier time attracting and retaining talent” Is there any data to support this, especially considering that compensation is usually the number one way to attract and retain talent, and remote workers are often not paid well (even after adjusting for cost of living) compared to on-site teammates doing the same job but physically present in an office location? There are rare and uninformative exceptions sure, but largely remote work pay sucks for doing the same job. The company is treating you like basic needs (quiet & private workspace, avoidance of crushing commute) are perks that should be offset with lowered salary, even though the salary is for the job you’re doing. Edit: Gitlab apparently even publishes their own policies about this: - https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/global-compensation/#paying-local-rates https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/global-c... It actually smells like outrageous bullshit pay policy to me. That’s actually kind of sad given they are held up as an example of more healthful & open-minded work policies. I can say for sure I’d rather deal with the downsides of an office commute & environment than to be paid less than a teammate doing the exact same job potentially solely because they are choosing to live in a higher cost region. That’s a pretty clear signal the company is looking for fungible, cheap talent and views remote as a cost-cutting tactic, not some corporate ideal. > “If we start paying everyone the highest wage our compensation costs would increase greatly, we can hire fewer people, and we would get less results.” Wow, what complete horse shit. So what about companies located in expensive urban centers that don’t offer remote positions? All their hires are at the highest local rate, yet companies like these are thriving, hiring plenty of talent, growing, etc. I see the “location factor” between San Francisco and NYC is 0.85. I would be laughing my way right off of that negotiation video call... I am frankly stunned to learning it’s such a sham with Gitlab!

GordonS 7y ago
> Is there any data to support this, especially considering that compensation is usually the number one way to attract and retain talent I'd also like to see some data to back this up, but intuitively it makes sense to me at least. A lot of engineers want to work remotely, yet there are disproportionately less remote positions available. Remote work is a huge deal for a lot of people (including myself), and many would happily trade a somewhat lower salary for it - no commuting means you save money, get more sleep, and more free/family time. I've been remote for several years now, and little things like getting to have breakfast and lunch most days with my family really matter.
mpeg 7y ago
> https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/global-compensation/#paying-local-rates https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/global-c... Yikes, would never work for gitlab after reading that and the relocation chapter.
- mlthoughts2018 7y ago
  Yeah, the relocation policy is bonkers. I think it’s just indefensible for them to do anything other than to take the highest local rate they pay and use that as the rate for all locations. If it incentivizes people to move to low cost areas, great! But I suspect employees who like city living will be perfectly happy continuing to pay higher prices to live there, as long as you’re paying them well.
  - ghaff 7y ago
    As others have noted, it may be "bonkers" but salaries that are partly determined by where people live are absolutely the norm for the vast bulk of companies with multiple offices. The only thing that makes GitLab exceptional is they're very transparent and upfront about it down to the specific numbers--some of which admittedly seem rather off.
    - mlthoughts2018 7y ago
      I don’t think this is actually true for software and knowledge work companies. It is true for commodity labor. If you’re an expert in a special database system, a company is going to have to pay you what you ask, regardless of whether you’re interviewing for that company’s NY office or Boulder, CO office or working remote from Alaska. Companies that don’t do this, whether hiring remote or hiring into different office locations, generally aren’t investing in employees but are looking to cut costs with location arbitrage, and get reputations for being bad places to work, lacking compensation or career growth. Gitlab is welcome to just be another one of these crappy companies, but it seems like they aspire to be seen as some type of thought leader, which is at odds with a pay policy that is at best mediocre and at worst actively exploitative by design.
vonmoltke 7y ago
> see the “location factor” between San Francisco and NYC is 0.85. I would be laughing my way right off of that negotiation video call... Dallas is a 0.800. I'd be all over Gitlab if I still lived there. Meanwhile, New Jersey and Virginia have the same factor as Alabama and Mississippi (0.633). I don't oppose the idea, but I want to know whose ass they pulled this table of adjustment factors out of.
- mpeg 7y ago
  London, UK is a 0.628 which is laughable.
  - fernandotakai 7y ago
    absolutely bonkers. london was one of the most expensive cities i've ever visited -- can easily compare to NYC.
    - perl4ever 7y ago
      Isn't this a product of the different exchange rates people use? From what I've seen, if you want to buy something large like a car in the UK, you can approximate the cost by taking the American price and converting it using the official exchange rate, which is...1.23 at the moment but often higher. But the salaries I see advertised are generally as if the exchange rate were 1:1. So I think wherever this factor comes from, it's not new or obscure, and at about 20%, it pretty much explains the discrepancy here.
- john_cogs 7y ago
  This explains how GitLab calculates the location factor: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/global-compensation/#calculating https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/global-c...

GordonS 7y ago

> Is there any data to support this, especially considering that compensation is usually the number one way to attract and retain talent I'd also like to see some data to back this up, but intuitively it makes sense to me at least. A lot of engineers want to work remotely, yet there are disproportionately less remote positions available. Remote work is a huge deal for a lot of people (including myself), and many would happily trade a somewhat lower salary for it - no commuting means you save money, get more sleep, and more free/family time. I've been remote for several years now, and little things like getting to have breakfast and lunch most days with my family really matter.

mpeg 7y ago

> https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/global-compensation/#paying-local-rates https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/global-c... Yikes, would never work for gitlab after reading that and the relocation chapter.

mlthoughts2018 7y ago
Yeah, the relocation policy is bonkers. I think it’s just indefensible for them to do anything other than to take the highest local rate they pay and use that as the rate for all locations. If it incentivizes people to move to low cost areas, great! But I suspect employees who like city living will be perfectly happy continuing to pay higher prices to live there, as long as you’re paying them well.
- ghaff 7y ago
  As others have noted, it may be "bonkers" but salaries that are partly determined by where people live are absolutely the norm for the vast bulk of companies with multiple offices. The only thing that makes GitLab exceptional is they're very transparent and upfront about it down to the specific numbers--some of which admittedly seem rather off.
  - mlthoughts2018 7y ago
    I don’t think this is actually true for software and knowledge work companies. It is true for commodity labor. If you’re an expert in a special database system, a company is going to have to pay you what you ask, regardless of whether you’re interviewing for that company’s NY office or Boulder, CO office or working remote from Alaska. Companies that don’t do this, whether hiring remote or hiring into different office locations, generally aren’t investing in employees but are looking to cut costs with location arbitrage, and get reputations for being bad places to work, lacking compensation or career growth. Gitlab is welcome to just be another one of these crappy companies, but it seems like they aspire to be seen as some type of thought leader, which is at odds with a pay policy that is at best mediocre and at worst actively exploitative by design.

vonmoltke 7y ago

> see the “location factor” between San Francisco and NYC is 0.85. I would be laughing my way right off of that negotiation video call... Dallas is a 0.800. I'd be all over Gitlab if I still lived there. Meanwhile, New Jersey and Virginia have the same factor as Alabama and Mississippi (0.633). I don't oppose the idea, but I want to know whose ass they pulled this table of adjustment factors out of.

mpeg 7y ago
London, UK is a 0.628 which is laughable.
- fernandotakai 7y ago
  absolutely bonkers. london was one of the most expensive cities i've ever visited -- can easily compare to NYC.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    Isn't this a product of the different exchange rates people use? From what I've seen, if you want to buy something large like a car in the UK, you can approximate the cost by taking the American price and converting it using the official exchange rate, which is...1.23 at the moment but often higher. But the salaries I see advertised are generally as if the exchange rate were 1:1. So I think wherever this factor comes from, it's not new or obscure, and at about 20%, it pretty much explains the discrepancy here.
john_cogs 7y ago
This explains how GitLab calculates the location factor: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/global-compensation/#calculating https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/global-c...