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A quick Google search tells me that the "new regulation" re firefighters you're talking about is a recent court ruling about the working time directive from 200

by looki 7y ago

A quick Google search tells me that the "new regulation" re firefighters you're talking about is a recent court ruling about the working time directive from 2003. Volunteer firefighters are a huge part of the firefighter workforce in many EU countries including Germany (97%) and France (78%) so I highly doubt what you're insinuating will happen.

ar-jan 7y ago
I read about it in Dutch news, which also mentioned that other countries also have volunteer firefighting forces, but I didn't look up their numbers. Various officials here said it would have big implications and keeping the system as it is would be impossible. So some law or regulation would have to change. Incidentally this is a good example of why EU regulations can be so problematic: if this example is fixed, it will be because many countries have large volunteer forces so the problem cannot be ignored. But if the regulation happens to affect just one or a few smaller countries you might be out of luck. Not everything can be regulated centrally without unintended consequences.
- the_mitsuhiko 7y ago
  It’s not even a regulation. It was a court that decided on this matter.
  - ar-jan 7y ago
    Yes it's due to laws and regulations. It's all part of EU labour law. See my other comment.
  - anoncake 7y ago
    Courts don't decide policy, they interpret the law.
- daleharvey 7y ago
  Speaking as a Brit Read the replies to your original post, there was no new regulation, whatever you read in the news was made up. In the british press there is a constant stream of fabricated stories about EU "regulations" that take a cursory google to disprove.
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    It's so bad in the UK that some years ago the EU set up a "British Euromyths" blog, to highlight all the Daily Mail type "EU about to ban breathing!" stories. The pieces are mainly from the expected suspects. https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/ https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/ No idea if there is a Netherlands equivalent.
    - laumars 7y ago
      It's so bad that the majority of people from deprived areas of the UK, places neglected by their own national government but do receive millions in EU funding still believed they would be better off leaving the EU. It's total madness.
    - ar-jan 7y ago
      There's plenty of generalizations and simplifications of issues, and in a few newspapers the tone is generally more critical of the EU. But most mainstream newspapers are actually quite pro-EU in general.
  - ar-jan 7y ago
    Speaking as a Dutchman. The news that was reported here was accurate. My reply on another comment here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21124780 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21124780: 1. I should have said "impossible" rather than illegal (although the consequence is still that it would be, well, illegal under EU law). That's the implication of what was reported in the Netherlands. For those who read Dutch, see e.g. https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/brandweer-dreigt-vrijwilligers-.. https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/brandweer-dreigt-vrijwilligers-.... and https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/vrijwilligers-b... https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/vrijwilligers-b.... 2. I was mainly talking about about (the effect of) overregulation in general, I did not say there is a specific regulation re volunteer firefighters. But if the implied problems become reality, it would be because of interpretation of laws and regulations. Yes, there was a lawsuit in Belgium. And no, that's not the main issue that was reported here. Lawyers conducted a study of the practice of Dutch firefighting on behalve of the Ministry of Justice and Security, and concluded that the way our system is set up contradicts EU law. The main issue is that volunteer firefighters do almost exactly the same work as paid firefighers. 3. That's point 1. 4. This is exactly my more general concern about the EU: unintended consequences are inevitable when you are centralizing laws and regulations to the most detailed levels for over two dozen countries with very different contexts. There are plenty of EU laws and regulations for which I think the intent is very sensible, but where implementation can be problematic, or problematic for specific subsets of the regulation, or specific countries/regions. 5. I never said they happened, I said "will". Perhaps I should have said "may" since the problem might still be addressed somehow. But even if it is adressed, in the case of the Netherlands a massive change would be necessary. According to lawyers and law professors who have studied the problem in the Dutch context. So no, not misinformation. I just worded it somewhat imprecise.
- johannes1234321 7y ago
  That is one of the reasons for the EU being so complicated. To counter the effect there is not only the Parliament which has to approve a new rule, but also the EU Council, the later in some areas even unanimously. There are different blockers in the system so that a (slim) majority can't simply overrule a minority.

by looki 7y ago

ar-jan 7y ago

I read about it in Dutch news, which also mentioned that other countries also have volunteer firefighting forces, but I didn't look up their numbers. Various officials here said it would have big implications and keeping the system as it is would be impossible. So some law or regulation would have to change. Incidentally this is a good example of why EU regulations can be so problematic: if this example is fixed, it will be because many countries have large volunteer forces so the problem cannot be ignored. But if the regulation happens to affect just one or a few smaller countries you might be out of luck. Not everything can be regulated centrally without unintended consequences.

the_mitsuhiko 7y ago
It’s not even a regulation. It was a court that decided on this matter.
- ar-jan 7y ago
  Yes it's due to laws and regulations. It's all part of EU labour law. See my other comment.
- anoncake 7y ago
  Courts don't decide policy, they interpret the law.
daleharvey 7y ago
Speaking as a Brit Read the replies to your original post, there was no new regulation, whatever you read in the news was made up. In the british press there is a constant stream of fabricated stories about EU "regulations" that take a cursory google to disprove.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  It's so bad in the UK that some years ago the EU set up a "British Euromyths" blog, to highlight all the Daily Mail type "EU about to ban breathing!" stories. The pieces are mainly from the expected suspects. https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/ https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/ No idea if there is a Netherlands equivalent.
  - laumars 7y ago
    It's so bad that the majority of people from deprived areas of the UK, places neglected by their own national government but do receive millions in EU funding still believed they would be better off leaving the EU. It's total madness.
  - ar-jan 7y ago
    There's plenty of generalizations and simplifications of issues, and in a few newspapers the tone is generally more critical of the EU. But most mainstream newspapers are actually quite pro-EU in general.
- ar-jan 7y ago
  Speaking as a Dutchman. The news that was reported here was accurate. My reply on another comment here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21124780 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21124780: 1. I should have said "impossible" rather than illegal (although the consequence is still that it would be, well, illegal under EU law). That's the implication of what was reported in the Netherlands. For those who read Dutch, see e.g. https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/brandweer-dreigt-vrijwilligers-.. https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/brandweer-dreigt-vrijwilligers-.... and https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/vrijwilligers-b... https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/vrijwilligers-b.... 2. I was mainly talking about about (the effect of) overregulation in general, I did not say there is a specific regulation re volunteer firefighters. But if the implied problems become reality, it would be because of interpretation of laws and regulations. Yes, there was a lawsuit in Belgium. And no, that's not the main issue that was reported here. Lawyers conducted a study of the practice of Dutch firefighting on behalve of the Ministry of Justice and Security, and concluded that the way our system is set up contradicts EU law. The main issue is that volunteer firefighters do almost exactly the same work as paid firefighers. 3. That's point 1. 4. This is exactly my more general concern about the EU: unintended consequences are inevitable when you are centralizing laws and regulations to the most detailed levels for over two dozen countries with very different contexts. There are plenty of EU laws and regulations for which I think the intent is very sensible, but where implementation can be problematic, or problematic for specific subsets of the regulation, or specific countries/regions. 5. I never said they happened, I said "will". Perhaps I should have said "may" since the problem might still be addressed somehow. But even if it is adressed, in the case of the Netherlands a massive change would be necessary. According to lawyers and law professors who have studied the problem in the Dutch context. So no, not misinformation. I just worded it somewhat imprecise.
johannes1234321 7y ago
That is one of the reasons for the EU being so complicated. To counter the effect there is not only the Parliament which has to approve a new rule, but also the EU Council, the later in some areas even unanimously. There are different blockers in the system so that a (slim) majority can't simply overrule a minority.