5 ms·

Just because some people say that doesn't make it true. Green Day fans are like the flat Earthers of punk.

benj111 7y ago
What else have we got other than some people saying it? Some people say the Sex Pistols are punk, there isn't really an objective measure we can measure this against.
- rr-geil-j 7y ago
  I think it's a problem of specificity. Green Day's music do or did sound like punk, but do they (still) live the punk lifestyle/ideology? Did they ever?
  - jghn 7y ago
    I remember that question being hotly debated even before Dookie came out. Hard to believe this is still something people quibble over. Let’s get back to tabs vs spaces ;)
  - dfxm12 7y ago
    Still? No. Did they ever? Yes. I would never touch Nimrod, but I'm not at all embarrassed to still listen to Kerplunk.
- trepanne 7y ago
  What do you mean, "some people"? Is there anyone saying that the Sex Pistols WEREN'T punk?? I can't truck with any taxonomy of punk rock that excludes the Sex Pistols, the Ramones, or the Clash. There were later waves of punk rock (bands like the Dead Kennedys, Minutemen, Circle Jerks) and there were not-strictly-punk spinoffs especially in the NYC art scene (Talking Heads, Television, Patti Smith)... but come on, anything written up in "Punk" was clearly at ground zero of the scene.
  - benj111 7y ago
    I mean I can disprove the flat earth theory by walking around the world, orbiting around the earth in space, or use something that relies on that, like say GPS. Whether Green Day is punk or not is a matter of peoples opinions. We can discuss what punk meant in the 70s, what it means today, whether its still relevant, how Green Day fits into that, it's pretty much someone's opinion whether they classify them as Punk. Apparently The Monkees were also written up in Punk, are we calling them punk now?
    - trepanne 7y ago
      Whether Green Day is punk is debatable... probably mostly centering around whether you think punk is a musical style or a philosophy.. but I'm really just saying that it's not really debatable that the Sex Pistols were punk, since the term "punk rock" was pretty much coined to describe what they were doing. I don't think Green Day counts as punk rock, because actual punk rock was about a lot more than the music... so Survival Research Labs, f'rinstance, was definitely punk in my book... and so were Nazi skinheads, although they sucked. But as you say, opinions vary. If you've read the Monkees writeup in "Punk", it's a snide hit piece the thrust of which is "these guys represent everything we're not". Punks hated hippies, and fake Madison-Avenue canned hippies were considered about the lowest of the low. Personally I'd rate the Monkees a bit better than that, once they started dropping acid... anybody who gave me Head surely can't be all bad!
      - oldmanthrowit 7y ago
        > and so were Nazi skinheads, although they sucked. But as you say, opinions vary. Nazi skinheads are alcoholic sociopaths who dream of an authoritarian, fascist world dictatorship. I'm not sure how that fits the punk ethos?
bitskits 7y ago
Glad to see that the superiority complex of the scene is still alive and well... Everyone needs an onramp to discovery. There are WAY worse things to be into than Green Day. But please, don't let me stop you from telling Hacker News how you're too punk for Green Day...
- mieseratte 7y ago
  Well TFA is about MRR, so playing punker than thou is par for the course.
  - bitskits 7y ago
    Great point. So true.
- bluntfang 7y ago
  green day dookie was the first CD I owned. It was the first thing I found on the street (read: garbage), and inspired my interest in free and used things. I owe them a lot. But man do they suck.
  - FillardMillmore 7y ago
    I don't know, I've always been more of an Offspring fan, but I don't think it's fair to say that Green Day "suck". They've obviously achieved an impressive level of success and people still pay attention and listen to their new releases decades after they were truly relevant. I never was a big fan of Dookie but their next album, Insomniac, is still an immensely enjoyable album to this day. Whether it's technically not 'punk' and is instead 'pop-punk' or just 'rock' makes no difference to me. The fact that their music isn't overtly anti-establishment doesn't affect the quality of the music. In fact, and this may get me into trouble here, I like the Dead Kennedy's 'Plastic Surgery Disasters' just as much as I like Green Day's 'Insomniac'. Is one punk and one not? Who cares? I quite dislike the purity tests in some genres of music (like punk and metal). That's something I've always appreciated about pop music - it doesn't have to adhere to some nebulous framework to qualify for the genre, it simply has to be popular (e.g. Beatles were pop, Madonna was pop, and Arianna Grande is pop - very different styles of music)
Bouncingsoul1 7y ago
I don't know when "dookie" came out I was like 12 and this album was pretty much the starting point for me and my friends. Don't know who much people got into punk via ZSD, but for us this came later. Maybe like VisualBasic for programming, started with it but wouldn't touch it today. Well at least I'm a True Believer ;)
- mieseratte 7y ago
  Waxing nostalgic about Visual Basic like that, one might imagine you're also a hopeless romantic.

What else have we got other than some people saying it? Some people say the Sex Pistols are punk, there isn't really an objective measure we can measure this against.

rr-geil-j 7y ago
I think it's a problem of specificity. Green Day's music do or did sound like punk, but do they (still) live the punk lifestyle/ideology? Did they ever?
- jghn 7y ago
  I remember that question being hotly debated even before Dookie came out. Hard to believe this is still something people quibble over. Let’s get back to tabs vs spaces ;)
- dfxm12 7y ago
  Still? No. Did they ever? Yes. I would never touch Nimrod, but I'm not at all embarrassed to still listen to Kerplunk.
trepanne 7y ago
What do you mean, "some people"? Is there anyone saying that the Sex Pistols WEREN'T punk?? I can't truck with any taxonomy of punk rock that excludes the Sex Pistols, the Ramones, or the Clash. There were later waves of punk rock (bands like the Dead Kennedys, Minutemen, Circle Jerks) and there were not-strictly-punk spinoffs especially in the NYC art scene (Talking Heads, Television, Patti Smith)... but come on, anything written up in "Punk" was clearly at ground zero of the scene.
- benj111 7y ago
  I mean I can disprove the flat earth theory by walking around the world, orbiting around the earth in space, or use something that relies on that, like say GPS. Whether Green Day is punk or not is a matter of peoples opinions. We can discuss what punk meant in the 70s, what it means today, whether its still relevant, how Green Day fits into that, it's pretty much someone's opinion whether they classify them as Punk. Apparently The Monkees were also written up in Punk, are we calling them punk now?
  - trepanne 7y ago
    Whether Green Day is punk is debatable... probably mostly centering around whether you think punk is a musical style or a philosophy.. but I'm really just saying that it's not really debatable that the Sex Pistols were punk, since the term "punk rock" was pretty much coined to describe what they were doing. I don't think Green Day counts as punk rock, because actual punk rock was about a lot more than the music... so Survival Research Labs, f'rinstance, was definitely punk in my book... and so were Nazi skinheads, although they sucked. But as you say, opinions vary. If you've read the Monkees writeup in "Punk", it's a snide hit piece the thrust of which is "these guys represent everything we're not". Punks hated hippies, and fake Madison-Avenue canned hippies were considered about the lowest of the low. Personally I'd rate the Monkees a bit better than that, once they started dropping acid... anybody who gave me Head surely can't be all bad!
    - oldmanthrowit 7y ago
      > and so were Nazi skinheads, although they sucked. But as you say, opinions vary. Nazi skinheads are alcoholic sociopaths who dream of an authoritarian, fascist world dictatorship. I'm not sure how that fits the punk ethos?

bitskits 7y ago

Glad to see that the superiority complex of the scene is still alive and well... Everyone needs an onramp to discovery. There are WAY worse things to be into than Green Day. But please, don't let me stop you from telling Hacker News how you're too punk for Green Day...

mieseratte 7y ago
Well TFA is about MRR, so playing punker than thou is par for the course.
- bitskits 7y ago
  Great point. So true.
bluntfang 7y ago
green day dookie was the first CD I owned. It was the first thing I found on the street (read: garbage), and inspired my interest in free and used things. I owe them a lot. But man do they suck.
- FillardMillmore 7y ago
  I don't know, I've always been more of an Offspring fan, but I don't think it's fair to say that Green Day "suck". They've obviously achieved an impressive level of success and people still pay attention and listen to their new releases decades after they were truly relevant. I never was a big fan of Dookie but their next album, Insomniac, is still an immensely enjoyable album to this day. Whether it's technically not 'punk' and is instead 'pop-punk' or just 'rock' makes no difference to me. The fact that their music isn't overtly anti-establishment doesn't affect the quality of the music. In fact, and this may get me into trouble here, I like the Dead Kennedy's 'Plastic Surgery Disasters' just as much as I like Green Day's 'Insomniac'. Is one punk and one not? Who cares? I quite dislike the purity tests in some genres of music (like punk and metal). That's something I've always appreciated about pop music - it doesn't have to adhere to some nebulous framework to qualify for the genre, it simply has to be popular (e.g. Beatles were pop, Madonna was pop, and Arianna Grande is pop - very different styles of music)

Bouncingsoul1 7y ago

I don't know when "dookie" came out I was like 12 and this album was pretty much the starting point for me and my friends. Don't know who much people got into punk via ZSD, but for us this came later. Maybe like VisualBasic for programming, started with it but wouldn't touch it today. Well at least I'm a True Believer ;)

mieseratte 7y ago
Waxing nostalgic about Visual Basic like that, one might imagine you're also a hopeless romantic.