6 ms·

Its the nature of these things, that the original ethos gets lost, for example, Green Day is classed as a punk band.

Lio 7y ago
There's something very punk about innocently asking "oh you're a punk fan? Do you enjoy the 'The Greendays'?" and then stand back as they either ooze contempt or explode... :P You can throw Avril Lavigne in there are a curveball but they'll probably know you're taking the piss if you do.
- Lio 7y ago
  This shouldn't be seen as an attack on punks ...it's more like a Minor Threat. (Damn it, I've become my father.)
  - igetspam 7y ago
    Nah_ dude. You're dad didn't listen to Minor Threat. You're still cool. (If you're not, then I'm not and I refuse to accept that and I have the bad tattoos to back me up.)
weare138 7y ago
Just because some people say that doesn't make it true. Green Day fans are like the flat Earthers of punk.
- benj111 7y ago
  What else have we got other than some people saying it? Some people say the Sex Pistols are punk, there isn't really an objective measure we can measure this against.
  - rr-geil-j 7y ago
    I think it's a problem of specificity. Green Day's music do or did sound like punk, but do they (still) live the punk lifestyle/ideology? Did they ever?
    - jghn 7y ago
      I remember that question being hotly debated even before Dookie came out. Hard to believe this is still something people quibble over. Let’s get back to tabs vs spaces ;)
    - dfxm12 7y ago
      Still? No. Did they ever? Yes. I would never touch Nimrod, but I'm not at all embarrassed to still listen to Kerplunk.
  - trepanne 7y ago
    What do you mean, "some people"? Is there anyone saying that the Sex Pistols WEREN'T punk?? I can't truck with any taxonomy of punk rock that excludes the Sex Pistols, the Ramones, or the Clash. There were later waves of punk rock (bands like the Dead Kennedys, Minutemen, Circle Jerks) and there were not-strictly-punk spinoffs especially in the NYC art scene (Talking Heads, Television, Patti Smith)... but come on, anything written up in "Punk" was clearly at ground zero of the scene.
    - benj111 7y ago
      I mean I can disprove the flat earth theory by walking around the world, orbiting around the earth in space, or use something that relies on that, like say GPS. Whether Green Day is punk or not is a matter of peoples opinions. We can discuss what punk meant in the 70s, what it means today, whether its still relevant, how Green Day fits into that, it's pretty much someone's opinion whether they classify them as Punk. Apparently The Monkees were also written up in Punk, are we calling them punk now?
      - trepanne 7y ago
        Whether Green Day is punk is debatable... probably mostly centering around whether you think punk is a musical style or a philosophy.. but I'm really just saying that it's not really debatable that the Sex Pistols were punk, since the term "punk rock" was pretty much coined to describe what they were doing. I don't think Green Day counts as punk rock, because actual punk rock was about a lot more than the music... so Survival Research Labs, f'rinstance, was definitely punk in my book... and so were Nazi skinheads, although they sucked. But as you say, opinions vary. If you've read the Monkees writeup in "Punk", it's a snide hit piece the thrust of which is "these guys represent everything we're not". Punks hated hippies, and fake Madison-Avenue canned hippies were considered about the lowest of the low. Personally I'd rate the Monkees a bit better than that, once they started dropping acid... anybody who gave me Head surely can't be all bad!
        oldmanthrowit 7y ago
        > and so were Nazi skinheads, although they sucked. But as you say, opinions vary. Nazi skinheads are alcoholic sociopaths who dream of an authoritarian, fascist world dictatorship. I'm not sure how that fits the punk ethos?
- bitskits 7y ago
  Glad to see that the superiority complex of the scene is still alive and well... Everyone needs an onramp to discovery. There are WAY worse things to be into than Green Day. But please, don't let me stop you from telling Hacker News how you're too punk for Green Day...
  - mieseratte 7y ago
    Well TFA is about MRR, so playing punker than thou is par for the course.
    - bitskits 7y ago
      Great point. So true.
  - bluntfang 7y ago
    green day dookie was the first CD I owned. It was the first thing I found on the street (read: garbage), and inspired my interest in free and used things. I owe them a lot. But man do they suck.
    - FillardMillmore 7y ago
      I don't know, I've always been more of an Offspring fan, but I don't think it's fair to say that Green Day "suck". They've obviously achieved an impressive level of success and people still pay attention and listen to their new releases decades after they were truly relevant. I never was a big fan of Dookie but their next album, Insomniac, is still an immensely enjoyable album to this day. Whether it's technically not 'punk' and is instead 'pop-punk' or just 'rock' makes no difference to me. The fact that their music isn't overtly anti-establishment doesn't affect the quality of the music. In fact, and this may get me into trouble here, I like the Dead Kennedy's 'Plastic Surgery Disasters' just as much as I like Green Day's 'Insomniac'. Is one punk and one not? Who cares? I quite dislike the purity tests in some genres of music (like punk and metal). That's something I've always appreciated about pop music - it doesn't have to adhere to some nebulous framework to qualify for the genre, it simply has to be popular (e.g. Beatles were pop, Madonna was pop, and Arianna Grande is pop - very different styles of music)
- Bouncingsoul1 7y ago
  I don't know when "dookie" came out I was like 12 and this album was pretty much the starting point for me and my friends. Don't know who much people got into punk via ZSD, but for us this came later. Maybe like VisualBasic for programming, started with it but wouldn't touch it today. Well at least I'm a True Believer ;)
  - mieseratte 7y ago
    Waxing nostalgic about Visual Basic like that, one might imagine you're also a hopeless romantic.
iamben 7y ago
And why shouldn't they be? What throws them into the "not punk" category? Making money? Growing older?
- trepanne 7y ago
  Pretty much. Malcom McLaren's svengali ambitions notwithstanding, commercialism ain't punk. The real germ of punk rock was pretty close to "Fuck Thatcher's England and Reagan's America, and all they stand for". Here's some actual punk rockers participating in the music industry... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm0t99WmSCM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm0t99WmSCM
  - iamben 7y ago
    Wouldn't that literally mean that as soon as you're successful/make money you're not a punk anymore? I guess you could give it away, but assuming you're not entirely pursuing the cash, what does it matter? I mean Jello's done ok, right? And I don't think anyone would argue Ian MacKaye or Brett Gurewitz weren't punk and they've got old and made a fair amount of cash...
    - trepanne 7y ago
      "Wouldn't that literally mean that as soon as you're successful/make money you're not a punk anymore?" That school of thought was definitely well-represented in the punk scene, although I don't subscribe to it. There was a strong streak of self-destructiveness in punk. The money itself isn't really the point, it's more like what you do to get it. Punk was about DIY, staying raw & real. Graduating from independent labels & playing for the scene into major labels, college radio, and playing for the masses is pretty much the opposite of that. That's when Green Day moved on from their roots. I'm not hating on them; I'd very likely have done the same thing in their shoes. It's just not punk. OTOH, DKs, Minor Threat, Bad Religion... their members continued to make their way singing that Sinatra song (although happily not ODing on smack). They're a good example of how to do it.
      - 7y ago
peterwwillis 7y ago
Punk's original ethos was "I don't like my parents' music and culture and I don't know how to play an instrument but I still wanna express myself". Tons of crap falls into that category, music that doesn't even classify itself as punk. I find it almost impossible to classify bands as a single specific genre. They're almost always in a spectrum of multiple genres. You can try to say "X band is more punk than Y band", or "X band is more Y genre than Z genre", but to say "Agnostic Front is punk" would be problematic; Is it hardcore punk? Is it just plain hardcore? Crossover thrash? Who cares? It is more punk than Adelle, though.
- scott_s 7y ago
  I think this tension is fundamental to the concept of genres across all mediums of art and entertainment.
- oldmanthrowit 7y ago
  > Punk's original ethos was "I don't like my parents' music and culture and I don't know how to play an instrument but I still wanna express myself". This isn't even close to the reality. You might enjoy reading a book entitled, "Please Kill Me: The Unauthorized Oral History of Punk Rock", by Legs McNeill (he coined the term Punk). The Ramones were kids who had an intense love of post-war Americana. Inspired by late '60s/ early '70s glam-rock & proto-punk scenes, they wanted to bring back to the garage which had been lost to 10 minute soloing prog-rock bands and soulless disco music. I feel like "We Want The Airwaves" is the "Why?" section of /ramones/README.md. The Clash? Mick Jones and Topper Hedon were very well-versed musicians. Joe Strummer was a passable rhythm guitarist, but was an amazing lyricist. Sex Pistols? They were the boy band of the MacLaren empire.
  - peterwwillis 7y ago
    None of that seems to have anything to do with their ethos. Yes, The Ramones, the shittiest punk band that ever existed, was basically making bad 50s music. The Clash and the Sex Pistols were absolutely fed up with their parents' generation. Who gives a shit if they were taking advantage of pop idols and trying to make themselves "bad boys"? Clothing and the ability to shred isn't an ethos.

Lio 7y ago

There's something very punk about innocently asking "oh you're a punk fan? Do you enjoy the 'The Greendays'?" and then stand back as they either ooze contempt or explode... :P You can throw Avril Lavigne in there are a curveball but they'll probably know you're taking the piss if you do.

Lio 7y ago
This shouldn't be seen as an attack on punks ...it's more like a Minor Threat. (Damn it, I've become my father.)
- igetspam 7y ago
  Nah_ dude. You're dad didn't listen to Minor Threat. You're still cool. (If you're not, then I'm not and I refuse to accept that and I have the bad tattoos to back me up.)

weare138 7y ago

Just because some people say that doesn't make it true. Green Day fans are like the flat Earthers of punk.

benj111 7y ago
What else have we got other than some people saying it? Some people say the Sex Pistols are punk, there isn't really an objective measure we can measure this against.
- rr-geil-j 7y ago
  I think it's a problem of specificity. Green Day's music do or did sound like punk, but do they (still) live the punk lifestyle/ideology? Did they ever?
  - jghn 7y ago
    I remember that question being hotly debated even before Dookie came out. Hard to believe this is still something people quibble over. Let’s get back to tabs vs spaces ;)
  - dfxm12 7y ago
    Still? No. Did they ever? Yes. I would never touch Nimrod, but I'm not at all embarrassed to still listen to Kerplunk.
- trepanne 7y ago
  What do you mean, "some people"? Is there anyone saying that the Sex Pistols WEREN'T punk?? I can't truck with any taxonomy of punk rock that excludes the Sex Pistols, the Ramones, or the Clash. There were later waves of punk rock (bands like the Dead Kennedys, Minutemen, Circle Jerks) and there were not-strictly-punk spinoffs especially in the NYC art scene (Talking Heads, Television, Patti Smith)... but come on, anything written up in "Punk" was clearly at ground zero of the scene.
  - benj111 7y ago
    I mean I can disprove the flat earth theory by walking around the world, orbiting around the earth in space, or use something that relies on that, like say GPS. Whether Green Day is punk or not is a matter of peoples opinions. We can discuss what punk meant in the 70s, what it means today, whether its still relevant, how Green Day fits into that, it's pretty much someone's opinion whether they classify them as Punk. Apparently The Monkees were also written up in Punk, are we calling them punk now?
    - trepanne 7y ago
      Whether Green Day is punk is debatable... probably mostly centering around whether you think punk is a musical style or a philosophy.. but I'm really just saying that it's not really debatable that the Sex Pistols were punk, since the term "punk rock" was pretty much coined to describe what they were doing. I don't think Green Day counts as punk rock, because actual punk rock was about a lot more than the music... so Survival Research Labs, f'rinstance, was definitely punk in my book... and so were Nazi skinheads, although they sucked. But as you say, opinions vary. If you've read the Monkees writeup in "Punk", it's a snide hit piece the thrust of which is "these guys represent everything we're not". Punks hated hippies, and fake Madison-Avenue canned hippies were considered about the lowest of the low. Personally I'd rate the Monkees a bit better than that, once they started dropping acid... anybody who gave me Head surely can't be all bad!
      - oldmanthrowit 7y ago
        > and so were Nazi skinheads, although they sucked. But as you say, opinions vary. Nazi skinheads are alcoholic sociopaths who dream of an authoritarian, fascist world dictatorship. I'm not sure how that fits the punk ethos?
bitskits 7y ago
Glad to see that the superiority complex of the scene is still alive and well... Everyone needs an onramp to discovery. There are WAY worse things to be into than Green Day. But please, don't let me stop you from telling Hacker News how you're too punk for Green Day...
- mieseratte 7y ago
  Well TFA is about MRR, so playing punker than thou is par for the course.
  - bitskits 7y ago
    Great point. So true.
- bluntfang 7y ago
  green day dookie was the first CD I owned. It was the first thing I found on the street (read: garbage), and inspired my interest in free and used things. I owe them a lot. But man do they suck.
  - FillardMillmore 7y ago
    I don't know, I've always been more of an Offspring fan, but I don't think it's fair to say that Green Day "suck". They've obviously achieved an impressive level of success and people still pay attention and listen to their new releases decades after they were truly relevant. I never was a big fan of Dookie but their next album, Insomniac, is still an immensely enjoyable album to this day. Whether it's technically not 'punk' and is instead 'pop-punk' or just 'rock' makes no difference to me. The fact that their music isn't overtly anti-establishment doesn't affect the quality of the music. In fact, and this may get me into trouble here, I like the Dead Kennedy's 'Plastic Surgery Disasters' just as much as I like Green Day's 'Insomniac'. Is one punk and one not? Who cares? I quite dislike the purity tests in some genres of music (like punk and metal). That's something I've always appreciated about pop music - it doesn't have to adhere to some nebulous framework to qualify for the genre, it simply has to be popular (e.g. Beatles were pop, Madonna was pop, and Arianna Grande is pop - very different styles of music)
Bouncingsoul1 7y ago
I don't know when "dookie" came out I was like 12 and this album was pretty much the starting point for me and my friends. Don't know who much people got into punk via ZSD, but for us this came later. Maybe like VisualBasic for programming, started with it but wouldn't touch it today. Well at least I'm a True Believer ;)
- mieseratte 7y ago
  Waxing nostalgic about Visual Basic like that, one might imagine you're also a hopeless romantic.

iamben 7y ago

And why shouldn't they be? What throws them into the "not punk" category? Making money? Growing older?

trepanne 7y ago
Pretty much. Malcom McLaren's svengali ambitions notwithstanding, commercialism ain't punk. The real germ of punk rock was pretty close to "Fuck Thatcher's England and Reagan's America, and all they stand for". Here's some actual punk rockers participating in the music industry... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm0t99WmSCM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm0t99WmSCM
- iamben 7y ago
  Wouldn't that literally mean that as soon as you're successful/make money you're not a punk anymore? I guess you could give it away, but assuming you're not entirely pursuing the cash, what does it matter? I mean Jello's done ok, right? And I don't think anyone would argue Ian MacKaye or Brett Gurewitz weren't punk and they've got old and made a fair amount of cash...
  - trepanne 7y ago
    "Wouldn't that literally mean that as soon as you're successful/make money you're not a punk anymore?" That school of thought was definitely well-represented in the punk scene, although I don't subscribe to it. There was a strong streak of self-destructiveness in punk. The money itself isn't really the point, it's more like what you do to get it. Punk was about DIY, staying raw & real. Graduating from independent labels & playing for the scene into major labels, college radio, and playing for the masses is pretty much the opposite of that. That's when Green Day moved on from their roots. I'm not hating on them; I'd very likely have done the same thing in their shoes. It's just not punk. OTOH, DKs, Minor Threat, Bad Religion... their members continued to make their way singing that Sinatra song (although happily not ODing on smack). They're a good example of how to do it.
    - 7y ago

peterwwillis 7y ago

Punk's original ethos was "I don't like my parents' music and culture and I don't know how to play an instrument but I still wanna express myself". Tons of crap falls into that category, music that doesn't even classify itself as punk. I find it almost impossible to classify bands as a single specific genre. They're almost always in a spectrum of multiple genres. You can try to say "X band is more punk than Y band", or "X band is more Y genre than Z genre", but to say "Agnostic Front is punk" would be problematic; Is it hardcore punk? Is it just plain hardcore? Crossover thrash? Who cares? It is more punk than Adelle, though.

scott_s 7y ago
I think this tension is fundamental to the concept of genres across all mediums of art and entertainment.
oldmanthrowit 7y ago
> Punk's original ethos was "I don't like my parents' music and culture and I don't know how to play an instrument but I still wanna express myself". This isn't even close to the reality. You might enjoy reading a book entitled, "Please Kill Me: The Unauthorized Oral History of Punk Rock", by Legs McNeill (he coined the term Punk). The Ramones were kids who had an intense love of post-war Americana. Inspired by late '60s/ early '70s glam-rock & proto-punk scenes, they wanted to bring back to the garage which had been lost to 10 minute soloing prog-rock bands and soulless disco music. I feel like "We Want The Airwaves" is the "Why?" section of /ramones/README.md. The Clash? Mick Jones and Topper Hedon were very well-versed musicians. Joe Strummer was a passable rhythm guitarist, but was an amazing lyricist. Sex Pistols? They were the boy band of the MacLaren empire.
- peterwwillis 7y ago
  None of that seems to have anything to do with their ethos. Yes, The Ramones, the shittiest punk band that ever existed, was basically making bad 50s music. The Clash and the Sex Pistols were absolutely fed up with their parents' generation. Who gives a shit if they were taking advantage of pop idols and trying to make themselves "bad boys"? Clothing and the ability to shred isn't an ethos.