5 ms·

Yeah, and often it comes from a place of skepticism, not from a place of trying to understand. And also from a place of laziness, where the skeptic expects the

by tkel 7y ago

Yeah, and often it comes from a place of skepticism, not from a place of trying to understand. And also from a place of laziness, where the skeptic expects the marginalized person to explain why the behavior or speech is harmful, and explain it in a way that is acceptable to the skeptic. All the while the understanding is a short Google search away.

steveeq1 7y ago
The problem is it's selectively applied. I can just as easily argue that rap music as "harmful" and what they said were "terrible" things, and yet there is no public outrage over that. In western society, it seems, thugs are exempt from all the politically correct standards that the rest of us are expected to abide by.
- ineedasername 7y ago
  Apart from rap just, really, really not at all being anywhere in the same ballpark, there are examples where rap music has undergone social scrutiny and changed as a result: Cop killing lyrics. I'm not saying they don't occur at all any more, but they're considered much less acceptable than in the 90's.
  - steveeq1 7y ago
    sure, you can find am exception if you look hard enough. But my point being is that the outrage crowd simply doesn't apply the same level of outrage to thugs as they do everyone else in any by-and-large way.
    - ineedasername 7y ago
      Maybe I've lost the line of thinking here. I thought we were talking about black face, and why people are offended by it. It's an offensive racial stereotype. I really don't see anything comparable about thugs. I'm not even clear on what you mean by thug outrage: is it that thugs exist? Is it media portrayal of thugs? Is it that thugs do or say bad things? I am honestly confused by this comparison.
      - steveeq1 7y ago
        My point is that "gangsta" rap music is every bit as offensive as blackface, perhaps even more. But outrage culture selectively applies the "harmful" argument to the latter, not the former. Nor do they make as a big deal of it.
        ineedasername 7y ago
        Thanks for clarifying, I see where you're coming from now. Between blackface and gangsta rap, there is a difference in kind: Black face is emblematic of society itself continuing the practice of dehumanizing a group of people that historically were dehumanized and stripped of all freedom. Gangsta rap represents something that is not nearly as systemic. That's somewhat beside the point though. You touch on a relevant question: Even if many fewer people are offended, they are still offended. So the question is, should society not urge any action at all for offensive speech? Should no one feel any pressure to modify their behavior in some way? If you don't want to go to those extremes, then you have to draw the line somewhere. Currently society draws the line at racist content, specifically that aimed at traditionally downtrodden minority groups, and even more specifically, those minority groups that still experience significant bias. Why does society draw the line where it does? My guess is because the scars there are not completely healed over, even if society has "recognized the error of its way". On other stereotypes we aren't as adamant. Irish, for example. We don't view the drunken Irishman stereotype with quite the same shock, probably in part because the institutionalized oppression (In the US) has been mostly dead and buried for a 100 years. In the UK & Australia however, the wounds are more fresh, and reference to derogatory Irish stereotypes are much more taboo.
- danso 7y ago
  > I can just as easily argue that rap music as "harmful" and what they said were "terrible" things, and yet there is no public outrage over that. Are you serious? "Sistah Souljah moment" was the epitome of "cancel culture" in the Clinton years. https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/jun/13/bill-clinton-sister-souljah https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/jun/13/bill-clinton-s... https://www.nytimes.com/1992/06/17/us/the-1992-campaign-racial-issues-rapper-chided-by-clinton-calls-him-a-hypocrite.html https://www.nytimes.com/1992/06/17/us/the-1992-campaign-raci...
  - steveeq1 7y ago
    That's an exception. Rap music is very prevalent in today's society, and almost all of the subject matter deals with rape, killing, and selling drugs. You basically had to go back to the '90s to find an example.
    - danso 7y ago
      I did not have to go back to the 90s to find just this example; I picked it because it was a critique by a sitting U.S. president, something that is quite rare and notable in any era. Critiques of rap music have been a not uncommon phenomenon in the years since: John McWhorter in 2003: https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-hip-hop-holds-blacks-back-12442.html https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-hip-hop-holds-blacks-b... USA Today; "It's 2014, so why are Eminem's violent lyrics still OK?" https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/music/2014/11/25/eminem-shady-xv-misogyny-violence/19444645/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/music/2014/11/25/eminem-... Trump attacking Jay-Z on the campaign trail in 2016: https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/29/politics/trump-jay-z-hillary-clinton/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/29/politics/trump-jay-z-hillary-... Eminem being called out in 2018 for using homophobic slurs: https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/pride/8473186/eminem-homphobic-slurs-accountable https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/pride/8473186/eminem... Wynton Marsalis in 2018: https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-conservative-war-on-hip-hop-white-scapegoating-and-black-respectability https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-conservative-war-on-hip-ho... It's ironic (or actually, fitting) that you claim "I had to go back to the 90s" to find an example, because your perception of rap music seems to be stuck in the 90s, back when it faced peak critique and backlash. That we see less such critique today does not indicate that rap music has gotten a pass, but rather, that rap music has softened since what you perceived it to be in the 90s. The most recent Billboard listing is paywalled, so I'll link to the 2018 year-end here: https://www.billboard.com/charts/year-end/hot-rap-songs https://www.billboard.com/charts/year-end/hot-rap-songs: https://www.billboard.com/charts/year-end/2018/hot-rap-songs https://www.billboard.com/charts/year-end/2018/hot-rap-songs The top 5 songs are: 1. "God's Plan" by Drake 2. "I Like It" by Cardi B and others 3. "In My Feelings" by Drake 4. "Psycho" by Post Malone 5. "Nice For What" by Drake I don't know all of the top rap songs in 2018, but I'm pretty comfortable asserting that the majority (nevermind "almost all") do not deal with "rape, killing, and selling drugs". I linked above to this Eminem story, but it's worth re-mentioning here: Eminem's peak work had extremely controversial lyrics; today, he's ripped for being lukewarm and for using the f-----t word, which was definitely not as verboten as back in the 90s and early 2000s: https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/pride/8473186/eminem-homphobic-slurs-accountable https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/pride/8473186/eminem...

by tkel 7y ago

steveeq1 7y ago

The problem is it's selectively applied. I can just as easily argue that rap music as "harmful" and what they said were "terrible" things, and yet there is no public outrage over that. In western society, it seems, thugs are exempt from all the politically correct standards that the rest of us are expected to abide by.

ineedasername 7y ago
Apart from rap just, really, really not at all being anywhere in the same ballpark, there are examples where rap music has undergone social scrutiny and changed as a result: Cop killing lyrics. I'm not saying they don't occur at all any more, but they're considered much less acceptable than in the 90's.
- steveeq1 7y ago
  sure, you can find am exception if you look hard enough. But my point being is that the outrage crowd simply doesn't apply the same level of outrage to thugs as they do everyone else in any by-and-large way.
  - ineedasername 7y ago
    Maybe I've lost the line of thinking here. I thought we were talking about black face, and why people are offended by it. It's an offensive racial stereotype. I really don't see anything comparable about thugs. I'm not even clear on what you mean by thug outrage: is it that thugs exist? Is it media portrayal of thugs? Is it that thugs do or say bad things? I am honestly confused by this comparison.
    - steveeq1 7y ago
      My point is that "gangsta" rap music is every bit as offensive as blackface, perhaps even more. But outrage culture selectively applies the "harmful" argument to the latter, not the former. Nor do they make as a big deal of it.
      - ineedasername 7y ago
        Thanks for clarifying, I see where you're coming from now. Between blackface and gangsta rap, there is a difference in kind: Black face is emblematic of society itself continuing the practice of dehumanizing a group of people that historically were dehumanized and stripped of all freedom. Gangsta rap represents something that is not nearly as systemic. That's somewhat beside the point though. You touch on a relevant question: Even if many fewer people are offended, they are still offended. So the question is, should society not urge any action at all for offensive speech? Should no one feel any pressure to modify their behavior in some way? If you don't want to go to those extremes, then you have to draw the line somewhere. Currently society draws the line at racist content, specifically that aimed at traditionally downtrodden minority groups, and even more specifically, those minority groups that still experience significant bias. Why does society draw the line where it does? My guess is because the scars there are not completely healed over, even if society has "recognized the error of its way". On other stereotypes we aren't as adamant. Irish, for example. We don't view the drunken Irishman stereotype with quite the same shock, probably in part because the institutionalized oppression (In the US) has been mostly dead and buried for a 100 years. In the UK & Australia however, the wounds are more fresh, and reference to derogatory Irish stereotypes are much more taboo.
danso 7y ago
> I can just as easily argue that rap music as "harmful" and what they said were "terrible" things, and yet there is no public outrage over that. Are you serious? "Sistah Souljah moment" was the epitome of "cancel culture" in the Clinton years. https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/jun/13/bill-clinton-sister-souljah https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/jun/13/bill-clinton-s... https://www.nytimes.com/1992/06/17/us/the-1992-campaign-racial-issues-rapper-chided-by-clinton-calls-him-a-hypocrite.html https://www.nytimes.com/1992/06/17/us/the-1992-campaign-raci...
- steveeq1 7y ago
  That's an exception. Rap music is very prevalent in today's society, and almost all of the subject matter deals with rape, killing, and selling drugs. You basically had to go back to the '90s to find an example.
  - danso 7y ago
    I did not have to go back to the 90s to find just this example; I picked it because it was a critique by a sitting U.S. president, something that is quite rare and notable in any era. Critiques of rap music have been a not uncommon phenomenon in the years since: John McWhorter in 2003: https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-hip-hop-holds-blacks-back-12442.html https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-hip-hop-holds-blacks-b... USA Today; "It's 2014, so why are Eminem's violent lyrics still OK?" https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/music/2014/11/25/eminem-shady-xv-misogyny-violence/19444645/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/music/2014/11/25/eminem-... Trump attacking Jay-Z on the campaign trail in 2016: https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/29/politics/trump-jay-z-hillary-clinton/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/29/politics/trump-jay-z-hillary-... Eminem being called out in 2018 for using homophobic slurs: https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/pride/8473186/eminem-homphobic-slurs-accountable https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/pride/8473186/eminem... Wynton Marsalis in 2018: https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-conservative-war-on-hip-hop-white-scapegoating-and-black-respectability https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-conservative-war-on-hip-ho... It's ironic (or actually, fitting) that you claim "I had to go back to the 90s" to find an example, because your perception of rap music seems to be stuck in the 90s, back when it faced peak critique and backlash. That we see less such critique today does not indicate that rap music has gotten a pass, but rather, that rap music has softened since what you perceived it to be in the 90s. The most recent Billboard listing is paywalled, so I'll link to the 2018 year-end here: https://www.billboard.com/charts/year-end/hot-rap-songs https://www.billboard.com/charts/year-end/hot-rap-songs: https://www.billboard.com/charts/year-end/2018/hot-rap-songs https://www.billboard.com/charts/year-end/2018/hot-rap-songs The top 5 songs are: 1. "God's Plan" by Drake 2. "I Like It" by Cardi B and others 3. "In My Feelings" by Drake 4. "Psycho" by Post Malone 5. "Nice For What" by Drake I don't know all of the top rap songs in 2018, but I'm pretty comfortable asserting that the majority (nevermind "almost all") do not deal with "rape, killing, and selling drugs". I linked above to this Eminem story, but it's worth re-mentioning here: Eminem's peak work had extremely controversial lyrics; today, he's ripped for being lukewarm and for using the f-----t word, which was definitely not as verboten as back in the 90s and early 2000s: https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/pride/8473186/eminem-homphobic-slurs-accountable https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/pride/8473186/eminem...