8 ms·

It is funny to see these technologies being shut down right when they are useful for IoT. I was building LED displays for bus stops to show information about t

It is funny to see these technologies being shut down right when they are useful for IoT. I was building LED displays for bus stops to show information about the next bus. I found pagers to be a great match: cheap chips with integrated support for communications and displays, low costs for small text messages, great network coverage. But then the telecoms started shutting down the networks. Now we are seeing the same thing with the push to 5G. I don't want 5G, I want 2G. Before there was TCP/IP over cellular networks, we had cellular packet data. Very power and network efficient, it was the basis for things like BlackBerry's push email. Now the 2G patents are expiring, so it could be cheap and ubiquitous, built into everything. But instead the 2G networks are getting shut down...

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Have you tried LoRa? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LoRa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LoRa
- mikepurvis 7y ago
  LoRa probably works great, but I think the parent's point is that there are extremely mature, low-cost technologies that are a perfect fit already for their need and have existed for decades. It's frustrating to have those technologies disappearing and have to choose between either something mainstream that's more expensive or a handful of more novel things any of which might turn out to be a flash in the pan and a support nightmare down the road.
awad 7y ago
I'm neither smart enough or well-connected enough to even hazard a guess but I wonder if there's an opportunity to acquire the older radio broadcasting assets and make them useful?
- planteen 7y ago
  Sure, you could get the equipment for next to nothing. But without a spectrum license it's useless.
- xxpor 7y ago
  That's essentially what's going on with high TV channels right now. They're getting repacked into lower frequency bands so the high frequency channels can be used for cell phone service. You may have seen your local channel telling you to recant, that's why. The FM/AM radio spectrum is too low frequency to be practical for cell phone use. The antennas would be outrageous.
ansible 7y ago
> Now the 2G patents are expiring, so it could be cheap and ubiquitous, built into everything. But instead the 2G networks are getting shut down... The frequency bands these older technologies run on are very, very valuable. The prices paid at the last FCC frequency auction are a tiny fraction of the revenue those frequency bands will earn over the next decades. Also factor in that in many cases, no new equipment is available for replacement parts, service contracts get increasing expensive as vendors milk the older tech, expertise is lost, features like remote management and interoperability with recent technology is poor.... The list goes on and on.
- buck4roo 7y ago
  It never ceases to amaze me that we allow our FCC to sell leases for so little. Instead of demanding companies share revenue or provide basic services for all for free, we allow this type of theft under colour of "fair governmental auction". Remember, in the US, the FCC is only the current custodian of this shared property called the EM spectrum. US citizens can and should take it back as their property, and demand all citizens profit equally from these auctions. Other countries have declared internet access a basic human right... At a minimum that should be included in all future leases.
  - kortilla 7y ago
    The FCC is US citizens. Running an auction is the best way to get the most value at the present time for the spectrum.
  - vvanders 7y ago
    You're more than welcome to get an Amateur Radio license and get the same access to spectrum, in some cases spectrum that's even better than what cellphones run on now.
    - StudentStuff 7y ago
      Amateur Radio license holders can't use encryption in the USA. This kills a large portion of the use case for an amateur cellular network.
ac29 7y ago
4G LTE has dramatically higher system spectral efficiency (in bits/Hz) compared to 2G - over 100x [0]. That's why 2G is getting decommissioned in favor of LTE (and 5G). NB-IoT is probably where your application would go these days. Bi directional communication, cheap chips, and data plans around $10/device/year for 12MB [1], which is a lot of short messages (though things like OTA firmware updates might be painful). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_efficiency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_efficiency [1] https://www.twilio.com/wireless/narrowband https://www.twilio.com/wireless/narrowband
- ansible 7y ago
  Spectral efficiency is super important. Especially with IoT, because there are going to be so many devices. Trying to do that with old pager network bandwidth would quickly overload the network.
  - Retric 7y ago
    IoT is really several different kinds of devices. Many of which are extremely low bandwidth. When you’re talking a few per hour, spectrum bandwidth is simply a non issue.
    - icebraining 7y ago
      A single device may be low bandwidth, but what about when you have thousands of such devices in a single apartment building?
      - Retric 7y ago
        100 bits per hour * 10,000 devices = 278 bits per second. That’s significantly less than the equivalent of a single cellphone per apartment building.
        magduf 7y ago
        You're assuming they all spread out their communications evenly. What if they all want to send out a status update message on the hour?
rasz 7y ago
Why not RDS? Still ubiquitous and cheap to implement.
VMG 7y ago
how did you do authentication?
GhettoMaestro 7y ago
2G is horrible compared to 4G or 5G efficiency. Please do homework.

toomuchtodo 7y ago

Have you tried LoRa? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LoRa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LoRa

mikepurvis 7y ago
LoRa probably works great, but I think the parent's point is that there are extremely mature, low-cost technologies that are a perfect fit already for their need and have existed for decades. It's frustrating to have those technologies disappearing and have to choose between either something mainstream that's more expensive or a handful of more novel things any of which might turn out to be a flash in the pan and a support nightmare down the road.

awad 7y ago

I'm neither smart enough or well-connected enough to even hazard a guess but I wonder if there's an opportunity to acquire the older radio broadcasting assets and make them useful?

planteen 7y ago
Sure, you could get the equipment for next to nothing. But without a spectrum license it's useless.
xxpor 7y ago
That's essentially what's going on with high TV channels right now. They're getting repacked into lower frequency bands so the high frequency channels can be used for cell phone service. You may have seen your local channel telling you to recant, that's why. The FM/AM radio spectrum is too low frequency to be practical for cell phone use. The antennas would be outrageous.

ansible 7y ago

> Now the 2G patents are expiring, so it could be cheap and ubiquitous, built into everything. But instead the 2G networks are getting shut down... The frequency bands these older technologies run on are very, very valuable. The prices paid at the last FCC frequency auction are a tiny fraction of the revenue those frequency bands will earn over the next decades. Also factor in that in many cases, no new equipment is available for replacement parts, service contracts get increasing expensive as vendors milk the older tech, expertise is lost, features like remote management and interoperability with recent technology is poor.... The list goes on and on.

buck4roo 7y ago
It never ceases to amaze me that we allow our FCC to sell leases for so little. Instead of demanding companies share revenue or provide basic services for all for free, we allow this type of theft under colour of "fair governmental auction". Remember, in the US, the FCC is only the current custodian of this shared property called the EM spectrum. US citizens can and should take it back as their property, and demand all citizens profit equally from these auctions. Other countries have declared internet access a basic human right... At a minimum that should be included in all future leases.
- kortilla 7y ago
  The FCC is US citizens. Running an auction is the best way to get the most value at the present time for the spectrum.
- vvanders 7y ago
  You're more than welcome to get an Amateur Radio license and get the same access to spectrum, in some cases spectrum that's even better than what cellphones run on now.
  - StudentStuff 7y ago
    Amateur Radio license holders can't use encryption in the USA. This kills a large portion of the use case for an amateur cellular network.

ac29 7y ago

4G LTE has dramatically higher system spectral efficiency (in bits/Hz) compared to 2G - over 100x [0]. That's why 2G is getting decommissioned in favor of LTE (and 5G). NB-IoT is probably where your application would go these days. Bi directional communication, cheap chips, and data plans around $10/device/year for 12MB [1], which is a lot of short messages (though things like OTA firmware updates might be painful). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_efficiency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_efficiency [1] https://www.twilio.com/wireless/narrowband https://www.twilio.com/wireless/narrowband

ansible 7y ago
Spectral efficiency is super important. Especially with IoT, because there are going to be so many devices. Trying to do that with old pager network bandwidth would quickly overload the network.
- Retric 7y ago
  IoT is really several different kinds of devices. Many of which are extremely low bandwidth. When you’re talking a few per hour, spectrum bandwidth is simply a non issue.
  - icebraining 7y ago
    A single device may be low bandwidth, but what about when you have thousands of such devices in a single apartment building?
    - Retric 7y ago
      100 bits per hour * 10,000 devices = 278 bits per second. That’s significantly less than the equivalent of a single cellphone per apartment building.
      - magduf 7y ago
        You're assuming they all spread out their communications evenly. What if they all want to send out a status update message on the hour?

rasz 7y ago

Why not RDS? Still ubiquitous and cheap to implement.

VMG 7y ago

how did you do authentication?

GhettoMaestro 7y ago

2G is horrible compared to 4G or 5G efficiency. Please do homework.